Direction of Left knee levers on the Es

John Hyland · From: South Australia

I notice left levers on the E string are placed unintuatively. The move of the left lever left raises E to F rather than lowering which to me is more natural. Same for the LKR. Is there a reason for this?

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The E to F change is usually used with the "A" pedal (B to C#), which is the leftmost pedal in an Emmons configuration. The pedaled C# is the root of the major chord when you add the "F" lever. It's very easy to move from A+B to A+F if the F is on LKL.
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John Hyland · From: South Australia

well that sounds reasonable

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

On the Emmons floor pedal setup (ABC) the most common is LKL raises the E's to F# and the LKR lowers the E's to D#.

On the Day floor pedal setup (CBA) its reversed; LKL lowers the E's to D# and LKR raises the E's to F#.

There can be others, but these two are the most used setups.

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

John, while LKR is the most common location for the R lowers on an Emmons pedal setup, it's by no means universal. I learned on guitars that didn't have any left levers, and got used to the E lower on my RKL. When I got my current guitar, I moved the E lower over to RKL because for me, that's where it's intuitive. There are several forum discussions about this, showing a small but significant number of players who put one or both E's on their right leg.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

The matter of raising and lowering the Es to F according to one's pedal set-up (ABC or CBA) is entirely logical. In my opinion, having both functions on the one 'leg' also makes sense; I've never understood the logic of having the raise on one leg and the lower on the other. I understand that the Es were lowered on the right leg at the dawn of time and some might be accustomed to it, of course, but it does limit one's options.

One thing I find counter-intuitive is a change I have on C6th. I eventually wanted to lower my As to Ab but all I had 'vacant' was a vertical knee-lever. It never ceases to feel strange to me to 'push up' to lower the pitch of a note!
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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

To me, the big issue in placing the E=>F lever is for it to either be on the side of the A pedal (LKL for Emmons ABC pedal order, LKR for Day CBA pedal order), or on the right knee. However there are a few well known steel players that reverse that on the left knee. So I tried E=>F on LKR with Emmons ABC pedals and found it absolutely unworkable for me. The A+F combination was just murderous on my ankle and groin.

To try to better understand various approaches to relative placement of the E=>F and E=>Eb levers, I suggest going through this thread, paying particular attention to the discussion between Buddy Emmons and Paul Franklin - https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007769-2.html

I understand the argument that putting both E=>F and E=>Eb gives the theoretical maximum number of lever combinations. But to me, that doesn't consider the relative utility of the combinations. I'm OK with a (very) slightly smaller number of raw combinations if the combinations I do get are more useful for me.

So I go for E=>F on LKL (with the A pedal) and E=>Eb on RKL. For me, and I suspect many if not most players, E=>Eb is the one used most in combination with other levers, of which there are usually more on the left knee. So I find E=>Eb more useful on the right knee.

As to preference for E=>Eb on RKL versus RKR: RKL is far more comfortable to me for longer stretches than RKR. That may have something to do with my personal anatomy - I'm tall with long legs. Back in the mid-2000s when I was thinking about this more, I actually had a couple of guitars apart. So I tried a bunch of different combinations, and found that worked best for me. But YMMV. If you are comfortable and competent working on your own guitar, it may be useful to try different approaches for yourself.

A couple of other threads that go into this at some length:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=329046

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=150471

I just saw Donny's post. Yes, there can be contortions with the A+F move if the A pedal is too far left of the LKL. So I generally put the A pedal on the second pedal from the left, and put something else on the left-most pedal - I have a few different variations. Franklin pedal on one guitar, strings 4/8 E=>D on another guitar. I even have that pedal working the C6 neck on yet another guitar.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Speaking personally, I find that I can smoothly transition from my LKR to LKL (4th & 8th strings at zero fret: F/E/D#) without it sounding - or feeling - awkward.

Perhaps it's the relative position of my left foot, given my 'Day' pedals? I don't know. I do use that move (when appropriate, I hope) ever since I heard it years ago on Ricky Skagg's 'Artificial Heart' (Terry Crisp, maybe?). With pedals down and the F lever engaged it's a 4m/maj7, release the lever and it's a 4m7, then lower the 4th string and it's a m7b5 (pedals down throughout). Very pretty.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Samuel Phillippe · From: Douglas Michigan, USA

So who's right and who is wrong?... Nobody.... it is the way YOU want it that makes it right (for you)
I have never given this issue a thought. I just accepted that is how it is when I started playing....What works for you might not work for me.....

I do enjoy these type discussions, I have been learning alot from them.

Sam

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Yes, there is no 'right' or 'wrong'. If Buddy Emmons, Paul Franklin, Lloyd Green, Tommy White, and many other great players can have significantly different pedal/lever setups and play at the level they do, then each of those different setups must be a reasonable choice. And many others too.

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

If I understand the main idea in the original post, it is simply that the Es go up a semitone when the knee moves in the opposite direction that the bar would normally move to accomplish this same change in pitch.
I remember having a similar thought process when learning about the E and F levers and the E9 Emmons set up. It is graphically unintuitive...
Conversely, the bar moving down a semitone is the equivalent of the knee moving toward the changer.
I suppose the Day set up makes more sense in this case, but it is remarkable how fast one can adapt to non-intuitive things on this instrument with a little commitment and repetition.
That said, I can't imagine playing Lloyd Green's set up, but he obviously manages the LKR with A pedal combination. If I understand correctly, he more or less pioneered the F lever as we know it, but it is interesting that he has it set up in such an ergonomically bizarre way.

David Ellison · From: California, USA

If you're going to have the Eb on the left knee, you'd want it going to the right because you most often use it in combination with the B pedal pressed down, rocking your foot onto the A pedal to go from a 7th chord sound to a 9th chord sound.

But even if it's on the right knee, I'd think you'd still want it going to the right because working with the A and B pedals like I said above, it's a natural body movement. If it went left, you'd have your knees moving toward each other, which looks and feels awkward.

John Hyland · From: South Australia

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

I have a different arrangements on 5 different steels (factory Emmons, Sho Bud, MSA and hybrid copeds for those who are familiar). I rotate between them in wide gaps of time.

I prefer E raises on LKL - no contest.

I like E lowers on LKR and RKR perhaps equally, although the intuitiveness of using the E lower with B pedal makes for a bit more reflexive use of that chord when its on LKR.

I'm not enamoured with E lowers on RKL - the problem is it's the same movement as the E raise just on an opposite knee and is therefore somewhat incompatible with brain/body symmetry. (Just a theory) . Shame its a standard - far better on RKR for those who want E's split between knees - but I'm sure mechanical reasons overrode mental limitations.

I think muscle memory tells you what you like the most. Its very hard to press reset on E lowers on LKR after you switch guitars. It hardwires itself in pretty fast and deep.

Once I get my guitar put back together with new parts that has the Es on the left knee I will make a final evaluation and decision if I should move all e's to the left knee on the D10s.

Unis are a slightly different consideration unless you play with a lever lock. I prefer to hold my E lowers with RKR for single footed B6 playing.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

In the A+F position, I routinely release the E to F raise on LKL while engaging the E lower on RKL, and vice versa. It's a very fast full step change. I was never able to do that quickly with the E lower on LKR. I made the switch in the mid-90s and never regretted it. But then, I probably use the A+F position more than most players.
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Hopefully I read this thread discussion correctly. My take is that this is a mechanical instrument , whether we raise or lower according to the fretboard is not a MENTAL/Theoretical thing , its a physical thing. It is indeed ergonomically designed for the use of a foot , leg and knee at the same time, in the same natural/physical direction.

The mechanics , while limited, are designed for our physical abilities and comfort. I say forget the up/down /pitch direction thing.

If we go down THAT road then the 2nd string and 9th string lower are also wrong. The direction of the mechanical movement is UP the fretboard yet we are lowering the pitch, which is DOWN the fretboard. Now add that the 7th string raise is typically on RKL where the direction is DOWN the fretboard but yet we are raising the pitch... Where will it end ?

I say instead of trying to figure out WHY things are the way they are, study and become acclimated with what we have in front of us.

We have plenty of threads and comments referring to splitting the E's, moving the E lower over to the right leg . But none of those discussions have anything to do with DIRECTION of the pitch , they are about a smooth transition from a raise to a lower, a mechanical thing.

Anyway, the good news is that most MODERN era Steels allow us to change the Raise/Lower to whatever we want on the levers. There are no rules. But also keep in mind that should we decide to go with the PITCH direction thing, we may very well be adding yet another stumbling block to learning and playing this dang instrument "comfortably" .
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John Hyland · From: South Australia

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