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Topic: 3rd string breakage. 25.5” scale guitar (Losing my mind!) |
Mike Vallandigham
From:
Martinez, CA
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Posted 16 Feb 2022 3:49 pm |
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Only other thing I can think of that might be different - between our guitars that are nearly the same - would be this.
My guitar has two locks on teh finger ( I suspect yours does too). One grub screw and one cap screw to lock the tail of the string.
On the 3rd string, the grub screw on my guitar does not lock the string - either by design (Mitsuo) or just because of the tiny gauge of the string, it can't grab it.
So on mine, the only thing locking the string (only on 3) is the cap screw.
Don't know if that extra length or movement is beneficial or not, but maybe try not locking the grub screw once?
Perhaps that pinch point is causing a weak spot?
Might cost you another string. Just an idea. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 16 Feb 2022 4:01 pm
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My 2017 keyless 25½" S12 came with GHS strings and an extra set I'd asked for. When it came time to change them I made a mess of fitting the 3rd and broke it. I didn't have an extra GHS so I tried an Ernie Ball, a D'Addario, a Rotosound (all good makes I've used before) and they all snapped.
When I got hold of a GHS I fitted it and it was fine.
If GHS is the factory fitment I makes sense to stick with them.
My Williams came with GHS too so I just stay with the one brand.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mike Vallandigham
From:
Martinez, CA
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Posted 16 Feb 2022 4:09 pm
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I bought mine from Scotty's, so I'm not sure what came on it - but I was using GHS Boomers also.
FWIW. |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2022 4:14 pm
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Edited to list tensions from .009 to .012.
This is from the D'Addario Catalog Supplement/String Tension Specifications
UW- Unit Weight. In all the charts and formulas in the brochure, unit weight is expressed in pounds per linear inch (lb/in).
L- Scale Length. This is the vibrating length of the string. This is determined by measuring the distance from the nut to the bridge of the instrument in inches (in).
F- Frequency or pitch. This is the pitch at which you will be tuning the string expressed in cycles per second (Hertz).
On the following page are two fingerboard graphics detailing the various frequencies for the standard guitar and electric bass guitar.
To calculate the tension of a string in pounds use the formula below,
inserting the three variables described above:
T (Tension) = (UW times ((2 times L times F)squared)) divided by 386.4
To calculate the tension of a steel string for a 25.5 inch scale, here are the factors:
UW for .009 (from the D'Addario chart) = .00001794
UW for .0095 (from the D'Addario chart) = .00001999
UW for .010 (from the D'Addario chart) = .00002215
UW for .011 (from the D'Addario chart) = .00002680
UW for .012 (from the D'Addario chart) = .00003190
L for the guitar = 25.5 inches
F for G# = 415.3
F for A = 440
.009
T for G# = 20.82809430417857 lbs.
T for A = 23.37927428571429 lbs.
.0095
T for G# = 23.2081162285691 lbs.
T for A = 26.05081900621118 lbs.
.010
T for G# = 25.71584664646351 lbs.
T for A = 28.8657149068323 lbs.
.011
T for G# = 31.11443296276398 lbs.
T for A = 34.9255602484472 lbs.
.012
T for G# = 37.03546311612578 lbs.
T for A = 41.57184223602484 lbs.
That is a lot of tension for a .011 gauge string. It is even higher for .012 gauge string. The .012 should have an extremely short life. The breaking point of string increases with the mass of the string. A lighter gauge string will break at a lower tension than a heavier gauge string. I have avoided going higher than 32 lbs. for my lighter gauge strings (.009 - .012).
The 28.8 tension for a .010 string is well within the safety zone according to my understanding. You indicated that you were breaking .010's frequently. ???
The 25.5 inch scale is on the high end of steel guitars. Going to a lighter gauge string will lower the tension but you may not be pleased by the wimpy sound.
The advice above of lowering your tuning from E9 to D9 will avoid the breaking your strings as often while preserving some of the tone of your .012 G#.
Karlis
Last edited by Karlis Abolins on 16 Feb 2022 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 16 Feb 2022 5:35 pm
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I often use GHS strings, either Boomers or Super Steels, which have .011PG and .017PG strings for strings 3 and 5, respectively. These are reinforced strings specifically designed for pedal steel. Might wanna give them a try. If you don't wanna pop for the whole sets, they are available as singles - e.g., https://www.juststrings.com/pedalsteelplainsteelghsguitarsinglestrings.html - and many other places, I'm sure.
25-1/2" scale is definitely long, but it should be able to handle standard E9 if it's keyless. The nominal tension is the same, keyless or keyed, for a given scale length. But the amount of distance or overall force required to raise the string a given musical interval is a bit shorter for keyless because you're not having to pull the string in back of the nut. This has been hacked over many times. And many people here have successfully dealt with long-scale keyless Excels in E9 tuning.
BTW - going to heavier or lighter strings makes less difference than you might think. As the string gets thinner, the force required to pull to a given pitch is less, but more or less counterbalanced by the lower tensile strength of the thinner string. And conversely with thicker strings. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2022 8:00 am
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I have used a .012 string for years with no problem.
This is on an Emmons.
When Buddy Emmons was helping to design the pedal steel, he experimented with different scale lengths.
He determined that 241/4"-241/2" scale was about the maximum scale that was practical to minimize string breakage.
However, that is not applicable to a keyless guitar because you aren't having to stretch that much extra length of string behind the nut.
Erv |
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David Munson
From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2022 1:53 pm Yes I have had problems also 25.5" excel 2005 model
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Best thing is the pre stretch the string up to E with a puller before tightening the holder screw. (bottom screw) Yes a number 12 string
Be sure not to over tighten on the grub screw or it will pinch the string and will break.
Let it sit for a while and slowly bring the string up to tune. finger pull the string and then tighten the string all the way to G#.
I have give a lot of thought to the D13th tuning because of string breakage. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Feb 2022 5:43 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
Is your Excel keyless?
Erv |
With a 25.5" scale, it would have to be.
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Eric Long
From:
Bay Area, California, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2022 9:01 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
Is your Excel keyless?
Erv |
With a 25.5" scale, it would have to be.
` |
Yep it’s Keyless. There’s a picture on the first page of the thread as welll. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2022 9:04 am
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My question was posted before the picture was put up.
Erv |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2022 11:49 am
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| Quote: |
| Strings break randomly (not in the same place) so it’s definitely not a burr but a tension issue. |
| Quote: |
| sometimes in the middle, sometimes at either end |
First - only a few string brands make their own *wound* strings; they have their sets and singles private labeled to their specs (diameter/shape of core wire, diameter/alloy/tension of the wrap for wound strings and in some cases the ball-end color and/or method and number of turns for the twist at the ball-end.
Most smaller brands have their strings made by Darco, D'Addario, GHS, LaBella and a few others.
But only a handful "draw" their own wire from raw steel stock, an extremely expensive process. The actual wire for plain and the core & wrap of wound strings is made by Ken-Tron, Mapes, Industrial Steel & Wire, Millard, D'Addario, GHS and a couple others - it's manufactured ("drawn") as "music wire", aka "piano wire".
Wire that's used for plain strings and the core of wound strings is (with the exception of a few specialty types and some small brands not made in the US) high carbon, tin plated steel.
Only the outer "wound" wire used for wound strings is nickel plated, "pure nickel" (a nickel alloy) or stainless steel.
So changing string brands when strings are breaking in the middle is generally useless - you can buy 6 brands and the plain strings will be made by 2 companies unless you buy an imported brand like Thomastik Infeld or Galli, because the raw wire is bought in huge reels from a few wire manufacturers.
And single strings sold in bulk or very low-cost sets on Amazon (with brand names not seen in music stores) or sets installed on Asian-made guitars are primarily made in China - and other than slightly different alloys they are virtually the same types/tension and quality as major US brand strings. Many of us in the tech world buy popular gages/types in bulk packages of 12.
I've done guitar tech work since 1971, and there are very few string breakage causes (other than installing a significantly wrong gage for the scale length/open pitch):
1. Burrs, grooves or other sharp sections at the saddle contact point (most can't be seen without at least a 20x magnifier)
2. Defects or damage of the wrap/twist at the ball end
3. (rarely) Similar issues as #1 at the nut (rare because the string movement at the moment of pick attack is further away/not as severe).
4. (rarely) Defective or overly tightened string locks at locking nuts and tremolos (almost all on fretted guitars)
5. String degradation due to corrosive solvents, cleaners, perspiration and/or high humidity - especially in coastal locations.
6. Overly aggressive pick attack, usually combined with #1 and/or #5.
Eric, if I'm correct you live either in the San Francisco Bay area or close, right?
If so, and unless your guitar is always inside the house with doors/windows shut and dehumidifiers running your strings are exposed to corrosive salt air. That weakens strings over time - I've lived my entire life within 2 miles of the ocean and even if strings are wiped clean and a guitar covered after every playing period corrosion starts within 3-4 weeks.
In a marine environment IMO 3 months is far too long to leave on a set of strings, unless it's cleaned and put in the case after you play. And breakage in the middle is the main clue.
I'm also guessing you have a fairly hard pick attack, but even average attack can blow out plain/high tension strings used for that long.
Using coated strings can help - but usually are not found in singles or pedal steel sets. And they can be more expensive than just changing regular strings more often. Flatwound strings hold their tone longer because more contaminants are removed when wiping them down, but it's not relevant to pedal steel nor plain strings.
I keep my steels covered and still change plain strings once a month; wound every 3 months. And I have a very light attack. I'm also a multi-instrumentalist and collector, so I buy most strings in bulk and keep most instruments cased.
My "daily player" 6-string acoustics and electrics that are in a guitar rack (mandolins and banjos on stands) get changes weekly, and when I was gigging a set of 6-string guitar strings lasted me 4 sets before going dead , and pedal steel strings were changed every other gig.
Players who come to me for service & have breakage problems - no matter what the instrument - are rarely changing strings and/or play very aggressively; players who start changing strings regularly - even ones with hard attack - have breakage significantly reduced or eliminated.
And I have broken 2 strings in the last 40 years - both defective ball end wraps! (and I have played 25" scale Fender pedal steels in E9 with plain bar bridges; b-benders; electric 12-strings and others with high tension strings).
Hope brand info saves you some money and other advice helps!
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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John Hyland
From:
South Australia
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Posted 18 Feb 2022 3:02 pm
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| Scott Swartz wrote: |
Online string tension calculators show 28.3 lbs for for a .010 at 25-1/2 which is less than the 31 lbs on a .011 at the typical 24-1/4 scale, but there could be other effects as mentioned break angles etc.
Did you ever try a .009 to see if that holds? Not sure what the tone would be like. |
Don’t forget as a .010 is thinner is is not as capable to hold the same tension.
In my opinion the .009 would sound terrible. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2022 7:35 am
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John,
I have the same opinion. 
Erv |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 19 Feb 2022 7:59 am
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| Glenn Taylor wrote: |
| I know this is a big leap and maybe something you don't even want to think about, but tuning down would solve your problem. I use a 25" scale and I've been playing extended D9 for many years. .012" on the 3rd string and I never break strings. |
^^^^This. A 25 1/2" scale is not a 24 1/4" scale, and standard tuning and string gauge sets will not be optimal as it is too far out of the design envelope.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27246
There is a big debate over keyed vs keyless that has little place on this situation: the most revealing part of the OP's statement is the random location of string breakage.
This directly implies overtensioning as string breakage is dominated by "inclusions" (imperfections introduced during manufacturing) and that exist randomly along the string length.
For this situation it seems clear the failure issue is due to an inappropriate matching of pitch, gauge and scale length.
This guitar would be better suited to an Eb or D tuning with a gauged set matched properly to that base.
Frankly, with the advent of Johnny Cox's D13 Universal tuning - you may have the perfect machine. |
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Eric Long
From:
Bay Area, California, USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2022 9:32 pm Update:
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First off, I want to thank everyone for chiming in on this thread!
There was a whole lot of useful information put forth, and I took it all too heart and learned a whole lot about string tension, the mythos of string brands, and about my guitar. I currently have some GHS PG 11's in the mail that I'll try out when they arrive in the next day or so.
I met up with Ross Shafer from Sierra Steels yesterday and we went over my guitar. We strung up an ernie ball .11 (same pack of singles that I had previously snapped a whole bunch of in getting it up to tension.) We got it up to pitch and it snapped on the finger side after about 5 minutes of pedaling. We did notice that the angle on the finer is also pretty intense which may be causing some of the string breakage on that end of the guitar.
We also noticed that my rollers/rod could definitely use a cleaning. It's possible that a little grit in there could have caused the string to "jump" slightly in its tension which might have caused unnecessary stress on the string.
Ross got out his jewelers Magnifier and checked the finger contact point to the string. We buffed it smooth, although there weren't any big burrs and we tried out an NYXL .11.
It held. I played about 2 hours last night on it and another 2-3 hours today.
Although it's been spelled out here that a lot of string brands are actually just repackaging the same wire (especially unwound strings), I've gotta say that I'll be avoiding the D'Adarrio strings that I broke so many of over the past week. I'll also be trying to find a source for bulk NYXL.
I will update again if/when I have something to update.
Thanks again for all of the help. |
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Steve Mueller
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2022 7:58 am
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Eric,
I'd agree that D'Addario NYXL's are your best choice with the issue you have. If you break those, you'd break any brand. They manufacture their own wire and my experience has been they don't break when other brands have.
_________________
2016 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2015 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2023 Williams S12 4 x 5, Milkman Amps, 1974 Gibson Byrdland |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Apr 2022 3:45 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| ...I have played 25" scale Fender pedal steels in E9 with plain bar bridges... |
The earliest Fender Cable guitars (24.5" actually, they never made a 25" scale pedal steel) generally won't sustain the high G# unless you string it up on the 1st or 2nd string tuning key. If you string it on the third key, it quickly fails.
Many makers of keyed guitars have tried for longer scales, and most decided on 24" or 24 1/4" to sustain reasonable life on that G# 3rd. |
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Tony Oresteen
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2022 9:49 am
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Eric,
It's seems to be a matter of physics.
On your 25.5" scale 0.011 string pulls 34.2 lbs and snaps when tuned to G#4.
A 0.012 would pull 40.8 lbs @ G#4.
A 0.0105 would pull 31.2 lbs @ G#4
A 0.010 would pull 28.3 lbs @ G#4
A 0.0095 would pull 25.5 lbs @ G#4
A 0.009 would pull 22.9 lbs @ G#4
Now let's look at 24.0" scale guitars;
A 0.009 would pull 20.4 lbs @ G#4
A 0.010 would pull 25.1 lbs @ G#4
A 0.0105 would pull 27.6 lbs @ G#4
A 0.011 would pull 30.3 lbs @ G#4
So it seems that 30.3 lbs of pull or lower is safe for a G#4 string as 0.011s are widely used on 24.0" guitars and tend to hold.
You should try a string that pulls 30.3 lbs or less. Try a 10.5, a 10.0 and a 9.5. Even though you may not like the tone of a 0.009", keep one with you in case your 3rd string breaks at a gig. The 0.009 will hold for sure.
If you tune down a 1/2 step to G4, an 0.011 on a 25.5" scale pulls 30.5 and should be safe.
Tune down a full step to F#4, an .011 on a 25.5" pulls 27.5 lbs.
Notes: For tension values I used Stringjoy's on line calculator:
https://tension.stringjoy.com/
For octave values I used the Middle C 4th Octave ISO standard.
_________________
Tony
Newnan, GA
Too many guitars, not enough time to play
'72 Sho-Bud 6139, '71 Marlen 210
'78 Fender Stringmaster Quad black
PedalMaster D8
Last edited by Tony Oresteen on 20 Apr 2022 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2022 2:32 pm
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Strings are a true Physics Nightmare.
The smaller the string the less tension it takes to bring it to tune.
BUT THE STRING HAS TO BE STRECHED FARTHER TO REACH THE TUNED NOTE.
That is the only thing that I learned from MICKY ADAM'S Steel Mechanics Lesson DVD. When setting up a guitar. Do the 3rd string G# (.011) first, Adjust stops and tune 3rd string. When you get to the 6th string G# (.020 Plain)
being a larger diameter does not travel as far and will tune within the stop settings of the 3rd string. Using a 6th (.022 Wound) is more critical because pull on wound string is based on core diameter.
So "The larger the string, More tension required, But less actual travel, and stretch, &%$#@, &%$#@, Which is the best way to go. |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2022 5:21 pm
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| I've been playing an Excel U-12 w/25.5" scale since I bought it new in 2004. I never had any string breakage on the 3rd string using Jagwire .011s. A few years ago Jags were hard to come by for a while and when they were available again I broke a few .011s. I thought it might be a bad batch so I went to a .0115 (also Jagwire) cause I had some laying around and they've been holding up real well. When my stash runs out I'm gonna try some of those fancy D'Addarios. One thing I like about my Excel's changer is the way it pulls semi-laterally instead of a conventional rotating cam on a shaft where the string bends back and forth a little each time you raise or lower it. There's an elliptical hole in the Excel cam where it rides on the main shaft and in addition to being keyless, it's that half-sliding/half-rotating motion that seems to make up for the potential for a 25.5" scale to break more strings than conventional changers and/or shorter scales. As far as I know, Lamar and Anapeg were the only other brands that pulled the string laterally instead of rotating it on a cam/finger. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 23 Apr 2022 8:31 am
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Use Jagwire, SIT, or GHS. I've tried other brands and couldn't get past the 3rd night of playing before a 3rd or 5th would break. I never break the above brands.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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