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Topic: Upper Extensions Chords (formerly: "C6th: Major 11th pos.") |
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 6 Apr 2022 2:06 pm |
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I am going thru a looong day here trying to find positions to play full 6 note MAJOR 11th chords on my C6th:
1, M3, 5, M7, 9, 11
The problem I am facing is that both, my C-to-C# and my A-to-Bb raises act on BOTH strings 3&7 and 4&8 respectively.
I can do an inversion off the 7th string rooted M6th with the 7th pedal (M7th & 9th raised out of the 6th and 1st degrees of those 2 strings) and add the "11th" off the 9th string... which sounds... "oh well" like a... IV-over-V.
Am I overlooking some obvious positions?
Thanks!... J-D.
UPDATE, I just changed the title, because of some developments on the subject based on some answers that were posted. April 11th, 2022.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it.
Last edited by J D Sauser on 11 Apr 2022 1:29 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 6 Apr 2022 2:22 pm
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Why? What's its musical function?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 6 Apr 2022 2:40 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Why? What's its musical function? |
scaring people? 
I am currently fooling around in NeoSoul, because of some other "non-WesternSwing"-chords I am keeping my neighbors worried with led me down that alley... well "alley" it starts rather looking like a 6 lane highway opening up onto a major toll plaza.
Essentially, its an superposition of a M7th and Dom7th a 5th above it.
I just want to explore what the musical function is.
And with 6pedals and 8 levers hanging out of my C6th S12, it annoys the heck outta my ego when I can't find a chord in 3 positions.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 6 Apr 2022 3:40 pm
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| JD, 4/5 chords : 9th string root, p6, A-Bb;8th string root ,p7+8 . I have others on my setup . |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2022 9:44 pm
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| JD….do you have a way to share your setup here? |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 5:35 am
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| Rick Schmidt wrote: |
| JD….do you have a way to share your setup here? |
Yes I do have a way, Rick:
(btw: for a matter of communication, when I mention string numbers, I do so like if I was playing a 10 string guitar).
On my latest setups I've added a 6th pedal (because I had hardware left over ):
As you can see I put the C-half tone raise on a pedal to the left of my 5th pedal. Together they move the whole tuning down a minor 3rd (and back one string)... in other words, I can "reach behind C" and it creates a "high G" on top (which on my 12 string I have anyways)... but it does more than that together.
HOWEVER, I wished (as I wished on my A's going up or down half too) that I could sometimes only raise or lower the top OR the bottom one, to create these "asymmetric" extensions or alterations.
So, as an experiment, my 6th pedal raises and lowers at the same time my bottom A... in other words, it does "nothing"... yet if frees the changer scissors out of the bottom A's pulls and if I raise or lower my A's while that pedal is down, it will only affect the top ones. It's an experiment...
Back to CM7.9.11:
I must however say that after fiddling around with that chord on the Piano I came to the same "conclusion" Ian Rae suggested: What's the musical function?
While the chord does not sound like a total train wreck, it does not seem to be appealing. It feels just "cold", not even interestingly "modal" or "icy".
I just wanted to answer myself a question about how a fully MAJOR7th chord could be or not useful when minorb7th" 11th's are quite common and seem to invert into other chords quite happily.
It's interesting how, when one ditches the 11th on the MAJOR and then adds a 13th... even flipped right back into the first octave, surrounded by the 5th and the M7 (all just a full tone apart left and right sound pleasing... and it revolves into a LOT of other things (can be played against other chords).
As you can see, I have a D on he bottom. I use that OFTEN in chords and I like to have a D root to the Dminor 9th... as I look at the tuning as a 4-chord-tuning instead of the typical 3: two Majors and both's relative minors:
- 7th-string rooted M6th and it's 8th-string rooted relative minor7th (open C6th/Am7th)
- 9th string rooted M7/9th and it's 1st or in my case 10th string-rooted minor7/9th.
I also use the D and F bottom strings as bass notes against the 7th-string-rooted Major triad or that D-string against the 7th pedal.
As Maurice put it to me pointing down at it, I too would not want to be without it anymore. But that's a different subject... but it's a bit the root to the "NeoSoul"-chordal uses I see on Piano tutorials that I've come to dig in on the steel (btw... I am NOT a pianist, I just abuse keys to experiment and "see" things a little better).
Thanks for the interest.... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Chris Brooks
From:
Providence, Rhode Island
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 5:43 am
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JD, wouldn't a more 'standard' jazzy chord be a major 7th augmented 11th?
The Aug 11 sounds better against a Major 7th, doesn't it? While a [natural] 11th goes with a minor chord.
One of my groups, which plays many original tunes, calls for this kind of chord. |
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Chris Brooks
From:
Providence, Rhode Island
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 5:43 am
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JD, wouldn't a more 'standard' jazzy chord be a major 7th augmented 11th?
The Aug 11 sounds better against a Major 7th, doesn't it? While a [natural] 11th goes with a minor chord.
One of my groups, which plays many original tunes, calls for this kind of chord. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 6:18 am
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| Chris Brooks wrote: |
JD, wouldn't a more 'standard' jazzy chord be a major 7th augmented 11th?
The Aug 11 sounds better against a Major 7th, doesn't it? While a [natural] 11th goes with a minor chord.
One of my groups, which plays many original tunes, calls for this kind of chord. |
Basically eliminating the M3rd? I seems to give some "rest".
It probably would make more sense.
Actually no, sorry my bad, the Aug.7th/11th STILL HAS the M3rd too but the 7th is a minor (b)7th.
But correct me if I am wrong:
Paying right now (on keys)
C: 1, M3, 5, M7, 9, 11, 13.... basically diatonically a stack of 3rds (minor/Maj):
which also is Gb7th,9,11,13 (  Ha!):
starting at "C": 11, 13, I (G), M3, 5, [b]b[/]7, 9. 13 etc... by scrapping the added 13th an Aug7th/11th TOO.
hmmm, I am tempted exclaim "interesting" but I would still not yet have an answer to Ian Rae's "So What" (and we're not YET discussing quartal-chords!)
I miss those times I could just pick up the phone and scream "operator, give me Mr. Anderson in Keller, TX, quick"!
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Joseph Carlson
From:
Grass Valley, California, USA
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Sam Conomo
From:
Queensland, Australia
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 2:13 pm Dom7,9,11,13
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Thanks everyone.
I am following along,
I am finding some new
Uses on my short Uni Tuning.
Thanks JD for
For the idea of thinking
Up a 5th to get other
Alterations.
Sam |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 6:11 pm
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I totally agree. Being able to carry a certain asymmetry is for Jazz much more desirable than the initially logic "change all pitches to the same" approach.
Likewise, many who have the C-to-C# raise on a lever, will have it only on the top C as they can add the bottom with the 9th pedal... That works especially well for those who moved the 8th pedal over to where the 5th pedal is... so that they can hit both changes.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 6:13 pm Re: Dom7,9,11,13
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| Sam Conomo wrote: |
Thanks everyone.
I am following along,
I am finding some new
Uses on my short Uni Tuning.
Thanks JD for
For the idea of thinking
Up a 5th to get other
Alterations.
Sam |
Thanks Sam!
Wasn't my "idea" thou... I just looked at my fingers spread all over the piano and suddenly it hit my face like a strawberry cream cake "splafff".
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Steve Mueller
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 8:09 pm
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JD,
What's the logic of the wound 6th, tuning stability?
_________________
2016 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2015 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2023 Williams S12 4 x 5, Milkman Amps, 1974 Gibson Byrdland |
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Nick Fryer
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2022 3:32 am
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Re: chord extensions
There are some basic rules that apply to upper extensions (notes above the 7th)
Maj 7 (1 3 5 7) 9 #11 13
Min7 (1 b3 5 b7) 9 11 13
Dom7 (1 3 5 b7) natural 9 #11 13 (altered b9 #9 b5 #5)
Min7 b5 (1 b3 b5 b7) 9 11 b13
These are the basic rules and colors that we hear and use in modern jazz (1930-present).
_________________
www.fryerguitarpickups.com |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2022 8:12 am
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What Nick said, plus the useful (and on your setup, easy to make) IV/V chord, which, in standard practice, is generally what’s meant by “11”, 1, (5), b7, 9, 11, no 3rd…. I know you already use this, just mentioning it for the sake of thoroughness..
The only time I’ve ever needed a Maj7 with a natural 11th is for melody reasons in certain tunes, like Stella by Starlight, etc.
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 8 Apr 2022 9:07 am
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| Steve Mueller wrote: |
JD,
What's the logic of the wound 6th, tuning stability? |
Yes, stability both as open and also to change stops... it's a muuuuch longer throw.
And timbre too, as I like the "sparkle" a nickel wound string has. I think o.o20 is way to sloppy and o.o22 just sound dead "donk". I know some attribute BE's tone to that o.o22... I beg to differ on that theory. I tried the plain one on E9th (middle G# and and C6th too many times, I've always ended up taking it down and re-rodding accordingly.
I am not the only one, but I am in a minority with this.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 8 Apr 2022 9:09 am
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| Nick Fryer wrote: |
Re: chord extensions
There are some basic rules that apply to upper extensions (notes above the 7th)
Maj 7 (1 3 5 7) 9 #11 13
Min7 (1 b3 5 b7) 9 11 13
Dom7 (1 3 5 b7) natural 9 #11 13 (altered b9 #9 b5 #5)
Min7 b5 (1 b3 b5 b7) 9 11 b13
These are the basic rules and colors that we hear and use in modern jazz (1930-present). |
| Christopher Woitach wrote: |
What Nick said, plus the useful (and on your setup, easy to make) IV/V chord, which, in standard practice, is generally what’s meant by “11”, 1, (5), b7, 9, 11, no 3rd…. I know you already use this, just mentioning it for the sake of thoroughness..
The only time I’ve ever needed a Maj7 with a natural 11th is for melody reasons in certain tunes, like Stella by Starlight, etc. |
Thanks to both of you!
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2022 9:33 am
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This is one of the the reasons that Buddy Emmons only raised the 4th string to Bb. I recently solved this problem with a half-stop on the lever. At the half, it only raises the 4th string to Bb. Pushed further to the full stop, the 4th raises to B and the 8th raises to Bb.
With the 8th string unchanged as the root, the 4th string Bb is a b9 note. This works very well with P8 for the extremely useful 7b9 chord.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 11 Apr 2022 3:38 pm
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I just changed the Title of this Thread to "Upper Chord Extensions"... because below answer really had to ferment in my brain to something I could organize.
| Nick Fryer wrote: |
Re: chord extensions
There are some basic rules that apply to upper extensions (notes above the 7th)
Maj 7 (1 3 5 7) 9 #11 13
Min7 (1 b3 5 b7) 9 11 13
Dom7 (1 3 5 b7) natural 9 #11 13 (altered b9 #9 b5 #5)
Min7 b5 (1 b3 b5 b7) 9 11 b13
These are the basic rules and colors that we hear and use in modern jazz (1930-present). |
At first, above information read like "bad news" because it opens a whole six pack of cans of worms. "Each chord quality would have it's own rule fo upper extensions"... so not only more to learn but more to find positions to play them.
The reason I came to ask about M7/9/11's was because of several videos on NeoSoul I am studying, which use a LOT of MINOR-9th/11th and 13th's. This because I was working against minor tracks and got bored and started looking for ways to "push the envelope" further and further, looking for "that" sound.
An issue I also have, which were my parents still alive they could confirm to you, is that as soon I am subjected to "rules" I always tended to ask "WHY?" or try to weasel my way out of "rules". The only rule I preach are the ones I make up and the rules of physics. Theory or theories have never been rules I would respect much.
So Nick Fryer -bless his heart- used the word "rules" and already he got me going. And I am very thankful he did.
Yesterday, I proceeded to create an "endless fretboard-chart to record the positions I could find MINORS with extensions on my C6th with all pedal and knee lever positions.
I THEORIZE that on a tuning tuned in 3rds (mainly) like the C6th is, one should be able to locate single note "pockets" on an average of every 3 frets... so 4 to an octave... WITHOUT pedals, except for Augmented chord based pockets.
To my surprise I found playing positions for MINOR 7th chords with mostly ALL extensions (9th, 11th & 13th) on an average of every 2 frets... so 6 to the octave and then they repeat!
After fiddling with all imaginable pedal-lever combinations and writing it into a chart, I was head-drained and went to bed.
But "I Had A Dream"!
You see, the day before, I had found more positions where I found my chord -ALMOST- just for the presence of a b13th or a b9th. ALWAYS those two separately or together, in positions I could NOT "straighten them out" with more pedals or levers. Yet, if I played those positions against my minor chord track, most seem to sound quite pleasant. I started to doubt my ears. Am I over-jazzed, have I lost it (and I know, some on here will argue "J-D. you lost it over 20 years ago, you #^*(()!&$!)?
So, about my dream... since you asked!"
I luckily happened to have worked my chart from working on Dminor on the steel. On my chart... it does not matter, but just to keep reference I used Dm which is iim to C.
And knowing that (in my dream now) that Dm, Em and Am use all the same notes... to notes of CMajor... I dreamed up wanting to test if all 3 minor chord of the underlining (you will read THAT word a lot henceforth!) Major scale would have the same 9th, 11th and 13th.
So, in the morning I Zombie-staggered over to the coffee machine and milked it for a Capuchino (important to know!) and set up shop at my 11 year old son's Korg SV2 (an AMAZING electronic piano with vintage sounds!).
"Things" are evidently easier to "see" on a keyboard than on a PSG! Not only is there on one of each notes but they are nicely lined up in regular intervals!
First I tested Dm, then Em and Am which is saying:
- minor rooted at the 2nd degree of the underlining Major scale (C in this case)
- minor rooted at the 3rd degree of the underlining Major scale (still C)
- minor rooted at the 6th degree of the underlining Major scale (yes, C).
To play these m7th/9th/11th/13th chords you play from the root on, every other white key. For ANY of these chords... in other words, it's played in an almost endless stack of "3rds" (3rd intervals from note to note). These "3rd" will evidently at times be minor 3rd or Major 3rd. Because the Major scale CHORDS are built of 3rds.
The result was the following for the MINORS:
- iim: 1, m3rd, 5th, b7th, 9th, 11th, 13th
- iiim: 1, m3rd, 5th, b7th, b9th, 11th, b13th
- vim: 1, m3rd, 5th, b7th, 9th, 11th, b13th
ALL these minors, when MODULATED in place will "work" or can sound appropriate against a "jazzy"/"soul" track!
So, I went to look at the 2 MAJOR chords off the Major scale. If the underlining Major scale is C, that would be "CM7th/9th/11th/13th" and "FM7th/9th/11th/13th".
- I Maj: 1, M3rd, 5th, M7th, 9th, 11th & 13th
- IV Maj: 1, M3rd, 5th, M7th, 9th, #11th and 13th
ANY of these two Major versions, when modulated in place, will play agains a "jazzy/soul" Major chord track.
Then we are left with the ONE Dominant7th off the 5th degree of our underlining Major scale and the Half-Diminished (mb5-FORMULA (a Half-Diminished and a mb5 chord have different uses although their formula is the same!)).:
- VDom7th: 1, M3rd, 5th, b7th, 9th, 13th
- viiø(mb5): 1, m3rd, b5th (so far diminished), b7th, b9th, 11th, b13th
I haven't tested the Half-Dims against minor b5th chord (which btw are the relative minor to a minor... or as the T. Monk put it to Barry Harris "a minor7th with a 6th in the bass"!).
So, EVEN MORE Chords to learn and positions to fiddle up with knotting legs and knees to awkward pedal-lever combinations?
But HERE's the SHOCKER:
While I played on the piano, I observed after a while that my left hand could only grab 2 different possible combinations of "every other white keys". LOGICAL... it's "every other key". So for a moment I thought "there's only 2 ways to play'em all". Got the last of my coffee cup... -PAY ATTENTION! The Capuchino!- and looked at my right hand. What my right hand was doing is grabbing the OTHER "every other white keys"!!
So, am I just grabbing ALL white keys? SURE!:
On the left: 1, 3rd, 5th & 7th... on the right: 9th, 11th and 13th. = 7 different notes. In a Major scale there are only 7 different notes.
The 9th is the 2nd, the 11th the 4th and the 13th the 6th: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 just spread up!
Yeah, but that's not all.... It's all THESE and only THESE notes for the, 1M, iim, iiim, IVM, VDom7th, vim, viiø!
THEY are ALL the same FORMULA! The root only wanders.
You see, PIANO players will tend to explain "Upper Extensions" as "Triad" over a 7th-chord! It makes sense for key-players because even if they analyze it as I did, against CM, they will eventually want to modulated it around and then, they get entangled in white & black keys. Depending on how they learn, especially if they learn from notation, the picture get's blurred easily.
But let me spell it out in steel guitar terms:
IF you find one way to play ANY of these chords on your steel guitar, you have the position to play ALL the chords/All versions.
It's the same interval formula!
From then on, unlike on keys, modulating on the steel guitar is evidently as easy as nudging that bar over to the appropriate fret while maintaining the same pedals-levers combinations.
It's THAT simple.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Apr 2022 11:52 pm
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Time to reveal the answer to my question.
1 M3 5 M7 9 11 is an unresolved suspension, which as Mr Woitach says is driven by melody. It resolves to 1 M3 5 8 8 10 (or maybe with a 6 or b7). But would you ever want the full chord was what I was really asking.
JD's right about the every-other-note thing, but because pianists generally leave the bass to the bass player they tend to think bitonally (bimanually?), where the extensions and alterations are chords in their own right.
So for instance in the key of C, G7#5b9 is realised as G7no5 in the left hand, with 3 #5 b9 making Abm in the right.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Lee Gauthier
From:
Victoria, BC, Canada
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Posted 12 Apr 2022 10:23 am
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I haven't fully worked through the positions yet on steel, but approaching an upper extension as Chord over Root seems like a viable approach on pedal steel. For example the C Maj 7 #11 13 would be played as a Dmaj with C underneath. You'd be missing the 3rd, but this style of voicing a triad over a different root is similar to how Stevie Wonder approached extended chords. It's a much cleaner sound than you'd get by trying to play all the notes.
If you have a bass player they could play C and then steel would play Dmaj/E and you'd have all the important notes. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 12 Apr 2022 1:26 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
I thought I new music theory until I read this post.  |
It's just "theories" which is like "ideas" or "intelligent opinions".
It's nothing like laws of physics. Those, once demonstrated (proven) are not debatable... free from theories and opinions. You let that steel bar out of your hands, it WILL gravitate towards the planet's surface you happen to be steelin' on. EVERY time.
Physics gave us the 12 semitones. "Men" chose to organize them into smaller "scales". The Major scale gives all sorts of other scales, just going thru it dia-tonically (aka. "Modes") as we move the root from tone to tone...
We are told that it is "The Music", Musical Notation was developed on the premises of that men-made arrangement of tone out of the 12 semi-tone scale and finally the piano was built to reflect that. For long, music was written to sound different in each other key. It was viewed as "The Music" and defended like a "Fact of Faith".
But the Major scale remains an "assumption" from which theories are spun, so it all becomes very debatable. I observe capable musician with a "deep" understanding of music (being able to explain and put into perspective) but then they can go on and on over what this or that chord could really be viewed as. More "theories" ensue. Just "theories", "opinions", "ideas".
Above, I tried to go about it analytically and near mathematically on a subject that crossed my path and triggered my interest... but still, it's just based on exploring the man-made Major scale as like it was cast in stone. But, it's not.
| Lee Gauthier wrote: |
I haven't fully worked through the positions yet on steel, but approaching an upper extension as Chord over Root seems like a viable approach on pedal steel. For example the C Maj 7 #11 13 would be played as a Dmaj with C underneath. You'd be missing the 3rd, but this style of voicing a triad over a different root is similar to how Stevie Wonder approached extended chords. It's a much cleaner sound than you'd get by trying to play all the notes.
If you have a bass player they could play C and then steel would play Dmaj/E and you'd have all the important notes. |
"Triads Over Bass" or as Maurice Anderson tried to initiate me into this by calling it "adding alternate roots to a chord"... is a subject that relates indeed well to the above analysis. (ONE of the reasons he insisted on the D-bottom string (D instead of C-relative to C6th tuning, C# on his E9th/B6 or C on his Bb6th)).
Some may question the musical usability of these 7-note chords and application to the steel. I get that.
Some of these sounds take some "gettin' used to"... so does Bebop, HardBop and lately NeoSoul to most who played Swing or Country Swing. It can be "hard" and even a "turn-off" on the ear at first. This is why I was so surprised when my then 10 year old son (who started studying piano a year before), jumped on Miles' "So What" and with that discovered Bill Evans whom he now studies. It's not "Pop" by all means.
Stevie Wonder is often the subject of analysis by some SoulJazz youtubers with a deeper affinity to "theories"... I however question the validity of over-analyzing a musician's work in order to somehow "explain" it or lay it out or even package it "mathematically". I understand Stevie Wonder has knowledge on the theoretical aspects of music, but like many geniuses of music, I suspect that most came about from his musical mind.
What I found above, somehow "certified" to me some of the positions I came across playing or experimenting to or against my (one-chord/no-progression) minor chord tracks, when trying to establish a map for positions, wondering if INDEED I was hearing right. Sometimes it sound "right" but like I AM turning the band upside down by shifting the key center (or root, in a single chord track case). Some seem "far".. almost "straying off" but remain still tethered to the bass line to be "fitting". "Is it me loosing touch with reality, or can I somehow explain it to an "AHA-moment" like above?"
When you listen to the original version of So What (1959 "Kind Of Blue" record with Miles Davis) which is really in ONE chord but modulates the whole thing a half step up and back down, playing behind the bass and then Miles, he seems to fumble at first. It's not really "defined" and suddenly, he starts messing with that Quartal-Chord and takes it "places" and within a few warm up (or make your mind up) bars, if you listen closely, he almost seems to play a progression. Yet the bass stays solidly in Dm (and later in Ebm and back). But while they go on and on on the same chord, he creates "motion"... In my opinion, this is why one can "stand" to listen to the song for so long. But there is no progression... he just makes it sound like it.
Maurice was a master at moving Triad-Over-Bass "chords" halfstep-whole-step... creating a suspense, like he was going to play himself "off the track", which made him at times sound like his steel was floating an inch over ground and needed to land!.... but, what I found above, suggest that these up to 7-note chords, even when you skip some degrees (after all, even with 3 finger picks + thumb, we can hardly beat a piano player's ability to carefully select (not "strum") 10 or more keys (sometimes hitting more than on key with a finger or most famously the thumbs), just invert and invert again and again... and when you play them or part of them, moving up and down the neck, the unexplainable becomes easier to at least OK as "acceptable" as "quite possibly right", leaving it to ultimate test of James Brown's famous counter during a fit with his Sax player objecting to asked to play stuff that seemed to him to be at odds with commonly accepted theoretical concepts:
"YEAH so I'm wrong, but does it SOUND GOOOOD?"
Thanks!... J-D.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it.
Last edited by J D Sauser on 12 Apr 2022 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 12 Apr 2022 1:45 pm
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
| Physics give us the 12 semitones. |
Not quite. Physics gives us octaves, fifths, fourths, thirds etc.
Mathematics gives us twelve semitones - the twelfth root of two does not occur in nature.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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