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Topic: Lowering finger activates raise finger? |
Tim Carlstedt
From:
Helsingborg, Sweden
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Posted 23 Feb 2022 11:28 pm |
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Hi, you all mighty Steel guitar Forum!
I just got a new Fessenden steel and it sounds killer! it has a great punch and "twang" to it that I really missed from my Carter D10. It feels more "emmons"-y in the string spacing which I like alot and the BL710 pu sounds great!
But, It's a 2002 model and when I try to install a whole tone lower on the 5th and 6th string, I can't get it to lower a full whole tone. I'll try to explain it the best i can. Split screws are removed.
1. I can get the finger to lower it all the way, if i "juggle" or pump the pedal slightly, then it sort of glides in to place. So there's enough travel in the changer to lower it a whole tone.
2. From what I can see, the raise finger activates about halfway thru the lowering pull.
3. I've tried to lube it up a bit and it helped some. Made it from a low Bb to a sharp A...
4. It has "Raise Helper springs" but I tried putting it in the position whith the most slack. Didn't do anything... Can i Remove these?
So my question is.
Is this corrosion in the changer?
Could it be something else affecting the raise finger?
Here's a short video where I try to show you what happens:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nYdBAbBXeXMEIM1HweeHHqVLFrLMy6bW/view?usp=sharing
Any tips? The rest of the steel works great. it's only when I try to lower 5 and 6.
_________________
Tim Carlstedt, Helsingborg, Sweden
--
Fessenden Sd10, Peavey ProFex II, Lil' Izzy Buffer, Fender Steel King, BJS bars. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 23 Feb 2022 11:45 pm
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Counterintuitively, you may have to slacken the Lower Return Spring. (A too-tight spring can cause the changer finger to pivot on the lowering rod nylon tuner]
Also, remove the helper springs
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Tim Carlstedt
From:
Helsingborg, Sweden
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 12:18 am
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Amazing! Thanks! It works and they return correctly!
I agree, that was counterintuitive...
Thank you very much!
_________________
Tim Carlstedt, Helsingborg, Sweden
--
Fessenden Sd10, Peavey ProFex II, Lil' Izzy Buffer, Fender Steel King, BJS bars. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 3:41 am
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A) great that it is working now
B) great illustration from Richard which also helps me to better understand why the other counter-intuitive thing sometimes works -- choosing the changer-finger hole that is not leveraged for maximum pull. Max pull would be the hole closest to the changer axle and I think I see that that would tend to magnify the tight-spring/pivot-point issue.
I've observed the problem with maximum leverage before but I never visualized what is actually happening. This is great. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 5:52 am
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The "Lower-turns-to-raise" is a weakness caused by the placement of the lower-return-spring on the lower scissor on just about all All-Pull designs over the years. Less of a problem on some designs that allow for a much longer lower-return-springs than others, therefore not tensioning up as quickly as most.
The lower-return-spring should be located to "push back" in line with or above the highest lower-rod hole, and the problem would never occur. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 6:48 am
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I always take off the Raise Spring to help a finger that isn't lowering enough.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 7:16 am
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The adjustable return springs often create more problems than they solve, that's why Bud Carter didn't like them. Uninformed players are quick to make "adjustments" to make everything equal. They want a pedal or lever that pulls four or five strings to move the same and feel the same as a pedal or lever that moves only one or two strings. That can be done, but it adds unnecessary complexity and increased possibility for things to go awry.
Over half of the problems I've seen on players' guitars have been caused by their attempts to "make things better".  |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 10:16 am
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| richard burton wrote: |
Counterintuitively, you may have to slacken the Lower Return Spring. (A too-tight spring can cause the changer finger to pivot on the lowering rod nylon tuner)
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I don’t understand the problem this diagram is demonstrating. Where else would the pivot point be, even if the spring was slackened? |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 10:34 am
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The rivet in the center of the diagram.
This picture is showing the normal situation where the rivet is the pivot point -- but imagine if a too-tight spring prevented the bottom of the finger from moving any further. Continuing to apply force would move the pivot point to the nylon nut... and the ongoing force would then overcome the string-tension holding the raise finger in place and it would move (raising the pitch slightly)
Last edited by Tucker Jackson on 24 Feb 2022 10:43 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 10:38 am
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My best understanding:
GREEN is the lower pull rod
BLUE is the proper lower pivot point and the lower movement
If the spring is too tight, the pull rod's action will actually create a new pivot point at the (PINK) spring connection point and push the lower nose (orange) into the the raise finger to move. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 10:42 am
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| Yes, that looks right. It's the spring attachment point itself that becomes the pivot point. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 11:41 am
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
| Yes, that looks right. It's the spring attachment point itself that becomes the pivot point. |
As noted in Richard's diagram, the lower pull rod nut is actually the pivot point. When the spring tension is too great it can overpower the string tension pulling the scissor the opposite direction and will lift center pivot of the scissor off the stop, thus moving the finger in the raise direction, with the nut being the fulcrum between the two opposing forces.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 1:06 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
| The rivet in the center of the diagram. |
This helps. Pivot points vs moving part contact points. Usually diagrams help me figure out what is being said in mechanical discussions, but the nomenclature sometimes gets in the way. Thanks Tucker and Jon. Though I am inclined to agree with Ian that the spring attachment hole would only become a pivot point under sone pretty extreme circumstances. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 1:16 pm
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
As noted in Richard's diagram, the lower pull rod nut is actually the pivot point. When the spring tension is too great it can overpower the string tension pulling the scissor the opposite direction and will lift center pivot of the scissor off the stop, thus moving the finger in the raise direction, with the nut being the fulcrum between the two opposing forces. |
Yeah -- I see it.
I've still got some confusion. It's like the annoying memes about "the internet is going crazy .... is the dress blue or is it....?"
I keep going back & forth, how I'm seeing it. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 2:06 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| ...the spring attachment hole would only become a pivot point under sone pretty extreme circumstances. |
The spring hole is only a point where force is applied in the system, it's never a pivot point. The pivot, or fulcrum, is a point between the two opposing forces. In this case it shifts from the rivet (the intended fulcrum) and the tuning nut (the fulcrum resulting from an imbalance n the system).
It's just a child's teeter-totter. If you placed a boulder on one side of the fulcrum on the teeter-totter (the tuning nut), then added a fat kid on that side ((the over-tensioned spring), the pivot would shift to being the boulder.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon
Last edited by Ian Worley on 24 Feb 2022 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 2:18 pm
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I'm no longer seeing the rod/nut being the new pivot at the bottom of the changer (there are multiple pivots, multiple levers in play).
The spring-attachment point is the single point that becomes immovable, no longer able to move to the left. That graduates to become the fulcrum around which the rest of the lever above it then rotates (i.e., the 'lever' is the lowering finger). Meanwhile, as you keep applying force, the rod/nut does keep moving to the left, even after the spring-attachment point becomes fixed in position. That's why the upper part of the finger also moves left; the rod/nut and the top of the finger are both on the same side of the fulcrum -- both are above it in the diagram.
So we have a lever, but it's little hard to visualize because there is nothing at all on one side of the fulcrum -- there is nothing below the spring-attachment. If there was, it would be easier to visualize how it operates as the fulcrum because as you kept pulling the rod, the imaginary piece of the finger that extended below the spring-attachment would move to the right in the above diagram.
Last edited by Tucker Jackson on 24 Feb 2022 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 2:42 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
| ...The spring-attachment point is the single point that becomes immovable... |
The spring attachment point is absolutely still movable when a pull is fully engaged, it's the end of the lever, the point where force is applied to the system, and that's the whole point here. The stronger the spring's tension, the more prone the spring's attachment point will be to move when it's not meant too and shift the fulcrum to the tuning nut. When you engage a pedal or lever and hold it, the one thing in the system that is stationary at that moment is the rod and tuning nut. The action of the fulcrum shifting from the upper rivet to the tuning nut occurs within the range of the rod and tuning nut's motion between fully released and fully engaged.
The spring attachment point is the end of the teeter-totter with the boulder and the fat kid. The boulder is already there (tuning nut), if the spring is to strong then the fat kid is there too. When the teeter-totter hits the boulder, the boulder shifts to being the fulcrum. Once the fulcrum has shifted, if the fat kid jumps off (loosening the spring), that end of the lever (the spring attachment point) will definitely move.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Samuel Phillippe
From:
Douglas Michigan, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 2:44 pm
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I'll keep following this discussion but I am now more confused.....
Sam |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 2:55 pm
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I get everything about the balance between spring tension and string tension and all that.
But I'm going to need a picture of the fat kid example... not quite following that analogy into the changer. This stuff's really hard to hash out using words.
On the issue of which point is technically the fulcrum AFTER the pivot moves off of the rivet: I can see how the nut could be a fulcrum in a leverage system that was different application... but the spring would have to be the force in that scenario, as is being argued here. You're seeing the spring as the thing doing the jerking on one end of a lever... but it's the pull-rod doing the jerking.
My point is that load on a lever and force on a lever are different things. Both places could potentially be a fulcrum depending on where the force is then applied. In this case, the force is not coming from the spring. At first, it's load, then it changes and become fulcrum. Meanwhile, the force remains the pull rod/nut both before and after the pivot point moves. That's my story. I should have paid better attention in school so I could debate the point better...
Last edited by Tucker Jackson on 24 Feb 2022 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 3:06 pm
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| Samuel Phillippe wrote: |
I'll keep following this discussion but I am now more confused.....
Sam |
Sorry, Sam, we spun off into a minor point about physics.
The bottom line is that if you're trying to get your guitar to lower a string, but it won't make it all the way down to pitch, it may be because the lower-return spring is too strong, so try loosening it.
Another common problem is putting on a wound 6th string instead of a plain -- and then finding it won't lower all the way. That's a different issue. Either put a plain back on, or keep the wound string and move the rod to a different slot on the bellcrank. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 3:22 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
| Question: if the lowering finger were hypothetically longer, and there was a piece that hung down below where the spring attaches... which way would it move? At first, as the lower were first engaged, and before the spring reached its limit or wherever its tension was great enough to cause the upper finger to misbehave, wouldn't that extra bottom piece move to the left? But then once spring tension became greater than string tension and the fulcrum moved, wouldn't that bit then move to the right as you kept pulling on that finger at the nut? |
Yes 
Or more correctly: the downward extension would tip over to the right, using the spring as the fulcrum. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 3:36 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
| ...Question: if the lowering finger were hypothetically longer, and there was a piece that hung down below where the spring attaches... which way would it move? At first, as the lower were first engaged, and before the spring reached its limit or wherever its tension was great enough to cause the upper finger to misbehave, wouldn't that extra bottom piece move to the left? But then once spring tension became greater than string tension and the fulcrum moved, wouldn't that bit then move to the right as you kept pulling on that finger at the nut? |
The way you answered your question is basically correct. The spring's tension (force) increases as it is stretched. The string tension countering it is simultaneously being reduced as it lowers. If, given the leverages at play in the system, the forces are far enough out of balance that the fulcrum shifts, then yes, the bottom of the lowering scissor starts to pivot on the tuning nut instead of the rivet, and the bottom end of the lowering scissor begins to move the opposite direction relative to the new fulcrum. Because this can start to occur within the range of the scissor's motion between neutral and fully engaged, and while the new fulcrum is actually still moving, the attachment point of the spring may not move much in space, but it is dynamic nonetheless. I believe this is why you were identifying the spring attachment as the pivot, but in terms of the basic principle of mechanics, the spring is still just an applied force at the end of a dynamic lever. Even though the fulcrum is still moving, the resulting change in force is still being transferred to the other end of the lever via that fulcrum.
The teeter-totter example is a much simpler system, a single lever, so not directly analogous here except in the broad sense of the shifting fulcrum. There are multiple forces and pivots in play in a changer.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 3:40 pm
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| ...Or more correctly: the downward extension would tip over to the right, using the spring as the fulcrum. |
The spring is not the fulcrum! It's a dynamic force. The nut is the fulcrum, even while it is still moving.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 3:48 pm
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| ...Or more correctly: the downward extension would tip over to the right, using the spring as the fulcrum. |
The spring is not the fulcrum! It's a dynamic force. The nut is the fulcrum, even while it is still moving. |
OK 
Now let the nut and spring switch place, and the problem is solved. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 3:50 pm
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| ...Now let the nut and spring switch place, and the problem is solved. |
truth!
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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