Non-pedal C6th to S-10 3x4

Levi Gemmell · From: New Zealand

Hi all,

I'm a non-pedal C6th player who usually idles in the Steel Without Pedals zone. I'm looking to transition to an S-10 pedal steel, most likely 3 x 4 - which will give me more than enough to think about for a long time, maybe even forever.

Favourite pedal steel players are usually non-pedal players who dabble, but I particularly love Bill Stafford, Curly Chalker, Johnny Cox, Doug Jernigan, Joaquin Murphey, to name a few.

Has anybody got some good advice on how to proceed? I am completely open to learning a Universal tuning if it is possible on the kind of guitar I'm talking about. I do not want to take up the E9th by itself, rather build on what I already know. Otherwise, I imagine a C6th copedent of some sort, but since I have not considered playing pedal steel until the past couple of weeks, I'm open to any and all suggestion.

Thanks in advance.

Ngā mihi nui,
Levi
_________________
Commodore S-8
John Allison S-8
JB Frypan S-8
Sho~Bud LDG SD-10
1966 Fender Super Reverb

Zach Lattin · From: Washington, USA

Back when I was primarily a non-pedal c-6th player I was in a similar boat as you, so I will tell you some of what I learned on that journey. First,in my opinion, 3 pedals and 4 levers is not enough for what you're considering, whether you decide to use some sort of universal tuning (don't even know what that would look like with a setup with that few pedals and levers,) or whether you decide to move forward with some sort of custom c-6th copedent, (consider, for instance, that the "standard" c-6th copedent has at least five pedals and two levers at the very least.) I was hesitant to learn the e-9 neck myself when I started, but let me tell you that once I realized how that tuning is "derived" from the sixth tunings, (I.e., LKR gives you a b-6th tuning and pedals a and b down gives you an a-6th tuning), my mind was quickly blown and I quickly changed my thinking on the e-9th tuning. I had a beat-up Carter Starter with three pedals and four levers when I started, and I quickly found that it wasn't enough for what I wanted to do.

So, my completely unsolicited advice to you is to first decide if you want to play a single-neck C-6th guitar (definitely nonstandard but really intriguing), or something like a U-12, (will require at least 6 pedals and five knees in my opinion), or just go with the E-9 copedent which can be accomplished with three pedals and four knees but, in my opinion and coming from the c-6th world really improves with that fifth vertical knee lever. Once you've made that decision it will be easier to choose the guitar that will work best for you. Take this advice or leave it; I only wish I had had someone tell me some of this when I was starting out. Smile

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

Zach has given you a very good answer.

Levi Gemmell · From: New Zealand

Thanks Zach, I appreciate the solid feedback! That is what I came here for - some advice to help me make the right decisions from the outset.

Ordinarily I would decide what I wanted to achieve and then go about finding a guitar suitable for that task but pedal steels are so few and far between in New Zealand that I have to take the chance while I have it. The particular guitar which I have the opportunity to take up is an early 70s Sho-Bud LDG. My immediate instinct is to look into adding pedals and a vertical lever to expand my possibilities and get a good C6th set-up.

Is it conceivable to add extra pedals and a vertical knee lever to an LDG?

I will take your advice to try out the E9th seriously. It sounds like the easiest option by a long way to get started as soon as possible, anyway!
_________________
Commodore S-8
John Allison S-8
JB Frypan S-8
Sho~Bud LDG SD-10
1966 Fender Super Reverb

Richard Alderson · From: Illinois, USA

Dear Levi - I came from exactly where you and Zach did. C6th no pedals. E9th was the best thing that ever happened to me. So much easier to play. If you buy the LDG you won't lose anything in the short term, (2 to 4 years I would say - depending on your progress!!) because there is a knee lever all 3 x 4 guitars have, the E flat knee lever, that lowers your E strings, and instantly gives you a B6th tuning across most of the strings, and with a bar on the first fret - you guessed it - C6th will still be there. Ask the current owner to demonstrate how the guitar sounds with the E-flat knee lever engaged, you will recognize your C6th sounds and intervals right there in front of you, But you will also have your new tuning E9th, which is the dominant tuning you hear on most (at least 80% or more) recordings (but NOT Joaquin Murphy, that's straight up C6th style no pedals). A third tuning in my way of thinking is C6th with pedals. That is what you will give up in the short term by buying an E9th guitar, and that's why there are 12 strings and double necks of course - to have both. So you're gonna have to decide E9th? or C6th with pedals? You won't lose much if anything from your C6th no pedals repertoire with the E9th guitar; You will gain E9th. What you lose would be C6th with pedals. You can't really get that with the LDG, which is why many people are going to recommend a 12 string to you. I made the choice for E9th, and now I am finally going back and learning C6th with pedals, which is a different beast than without the pedals. If you feel you can wait for a 12 string, you can get both. If you do buy the LDG, it shouldn't be too hard to sell when a 12 string comes along. And of course all of this assumes the LDG is in good mechanical working order; but if it is, its hard to go wrong learning E9th, that's for sure. And good LDGs are pretty desirable which could be an added bonus.
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Derby SD-10 5x6; GFI S-10 5x5; GFI S-10 5x5; Zum D-10 8x7; Zum D-10 9x9; Fender 400; Fender Rumble 200; Nashville 400; Telonics TCA-500.

scott murray · From: Asheville, NC

I would say at least 75% of pedal C6 is played with 3 pedals: 5, 6, and 7... some players remove pedal 8 altogether. and 4 levers is 2 or 3 more than a lot of C6 players have.
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1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

I love C6 and after lots of playing around will probably be doing D10 guitars for the rest of my life now due to not wanting the compromises of universal.

However, I think S10 C6 is very doable on 3x4. I prefer double-footing 5/6 with 7 but IMO the best setup would be P8 changes on A pedal, P5 changes on B pedal, P6 changes on C pedal.

Put P7 changes on whatever knee feels best.

The rest of the changes are more negotiable based on style/preference. I'd use the other 3 levers for C lower to B, A raise to Bb and C raise to C#, though I'd miss A lower to Ab a lot. Other good changes are traditional P4, or raising both Es to F.

I played C6 lap for a couple years and C6 on a Fender 400 for a couple years and I will say don't pass on E9 if it's simply an intimidation/unfamiliarity factor. It's not that bad a transition and the traditional stuff on there is really fun.

John Sims · From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL

Levi,

I would suggest a U-12. They are plentiful and the modern steels have less maintenance issues. You can do E9 and B6 (C6) on it. I was seriously looking into a Sho-Bud LDG but very hard to find one and even harder to maintain, and I'm damn good at mechanics... They sound awesome though. I just recently read a lengthy thread on the older Sho-Buds regarding the maintenance issues on the forum. It's worth looking up ad reading it. Ricky Davis can also give you a heads up on the LDG...
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Best Regards,

John

1997 Carter U-12 Double Body-Natural Birdseye Maple-8p/5k, Peavey Nashville 1000 Amp, Goodrich L10K Vol. Pedal, Boss DD-3 Delay, Boss CE-5 Chorus, Behringer UMC-204HD Audio Interface, AKAI MPK Mini MK3 Professional Midi Keyboard/Controller, Gretsch Bobtail Resonator, Fender Banjo, Rondo SX Lap Steel (C6), DIY Lap Steel (Open D), and a few Mojo Hand Cigar Box Guitars (MojoHandGuitars.com).

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Don’t forget Levi is in New Zealand and choices are limited. LDG sounds good but I think would be expensive to add pedals and lever.

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Like others have said, once you start playing E9 and getting into the voicings it offers, you'll have a new perspective on things.

One thing you might consider is the 10 string E9/B6 approach. This is basically the same as standard, with typical E9 changes, but string 9 is B and 10 is G#
The D string is removed and generally replaced on a lever, either on string 9, raising B-D, or string 8, lowering E-D. And the 10th string raises to A natural along with the other two G#s, on the B pedal.
I have this set up on a S10 and it works great.
You do have to add a pull to the B pedal though. I had to sacrifice one pull on RKL to get the B-D raise, but a lot of S10s have the D-C# on 9 that you can reconfigure for the D note.

1 F#
2 D#
3 G#
4 E
5 B
6 G#
7 F#
8 E
9 B ( to D)
10 G# ( to A)

It means with AB down, you get a big A6 voicing with a low root, and with Es lowered only, you have B6.

Here's how it sits in the key of C, for example:

FRET 1, Es lowered

1. (g)
2. (e)
3 (a)
4. E
5. C
6. A
7. G
8. E
9. C
10. A

FRET 3, AB down

1. (a)
2. (f#)
3. (c)
4. G
5. E
6. C
7. A
8. G
9. E
10. C

And of course all the beautiful, classic E9 and E13 stuff with that D lever on string 9 is there when you need that flat 7.
There are a handful of players on the forum who use this tuning, and it is the top 10 strings of a 'standard' U12 E9/B6 tuning.
Might be something to think about since you're already playing and thinking in terms of versatile tunings.

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

I would seriously consider Andrew's idea. Also there are many ways around not having the vertical B-Bb knee lever. Since your options are limited due to location that LDG is a good thing for you.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.

D Schubert · From: Columbia, MO, USA

Following this thread, as I play E9th pedal steel (3+5) and non-pedal C6th as two separate instruments. Doubleneck too heavy, universal too hard for old guy to comprehend. Smile

David Ball · From: North Carolina High Country

I consider E9 and C6 to be two separate instruments. I'm comfortable playing E9 with 3 and 4, although I have 3 and 5. Just never use the Bb lever much.

I've played C6 lap steel for a long time. On pedal steel, I use 5,6 and 7 for the most part along with a couple of the knee levers. I miss those changes when I play non-pedal these days. But I still play the C6 neck like a lap steel "with benefits."

Dave

Bill Cunningham · From: Atlanta, Ga. USA

I have never thought about this but now you have ME thinking since I play a fair amount of C6. I agree that you should consider a universal if you can get it. But you could play a long time with a S10 3+4!

I would go with standard pedals 5,6,7. Put pedal 8 on LKL. Actually that is where I have it on my guitar since old Atlanta pro Mac Acheson in the 1980’s.

Lower the A’s on LKR and raise them on RKL. Lower 3 on RKR. If you think you have to have the half tone raise on 3 then put it on RKL and drop the half tone A raise.

Pedal 4 is least important for you now.

Enjoy your journey.
_________________
Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA

Levi Gemmell · From: New Zealand

Good afternoon gentlemen, and thank you very much for all the comments and assistance. I've recovered from a bout of COVID and now I'm ready to get back in the saddle again.

Richard: I appreciate the opportunity cost you're referring to when you pitch it as E9th + C6th or just C6th with pedals. There's a big decision to be made there. In the grand scheme a couple of years to get my chops up isn't much of a loss. I agree the LDG will serve me well up until a 12 comes along.

To a few of you gentlemen: It seems to me that a C6th set up on the LDG is at least possible with the three pedals and the knees I have, which essentially validates my dilemma. It's good to know I'm on the right track, however...

Andrew, K Maul: I will tentatively update this post when I take custody of the Sho~Bud, but I think I'm going to take the recommendation - top 10 strings of the "standard U12 E9th/B6th." I'm trying to be open-minded. Although I have mainly played Hawaiian music on the C6th, my friends are quite ambitious indie musicians and I'd love to push my boat out a bit further in their direction.

With this in mind, all I need to do is add a pull to get the B-D raise, correct? If I can manage the string 9 lower, I won't have to add a pull will I? I'd love to get by with a minimum of tinkering.
_________________
Commodore S-8
John Allison S-8
JB Frypan S-8
Sho~Bud LDG SD-10
1966 Fender Super Reverb

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

In a standard Emmons setup there is a lower of the D to C# on the 9th string. If you now have B on that string you can use the same rod to raise it B-D. You’ll also raise 9 instead of 10 to C# with the A pedal. The only other thing you should add is a B pedal G#-A raise on 10, which will take another puller and rod.
Without seeing the copedent of that LDG there is no way of knowing exactly what new parts you’ll have obtain.
There will be a little tinkering but it is some of the least complicated tinkering to be had on pedal steel.
_________________
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Here's a good way to set up C6th with 3 pedals. The pedals are p5 p6 p7 from a D-10, and p8 is on LKL. It's missing p4 and the Ab lever, which a lot of people don't have anyway. It's pretty much what Bill Cunningham posted above.
[center:a2cdef3a88]

[/center:a2cdef3a88]There's nothing unusual here. All instructional tab for C6th will work as written.

I prefer the timbre of D6th, especially on a single neck guitar. I'd remove the lowest string (D) and insert a major 7th (C#) as string 2, like on E9th. The lowest note would be E with p1, just low enough to trade parts with the guitar player. I'd also separate the p8 changes to LKL and RKR for more versatility, a simplification of Paul Franklin's approach. Here's what that all looks like:
[center:a2cdef3a88]

[/center:a2cdef3a88]But I'm an outlier with this D6th idea, so you should probably ignore it. Alien

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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

Levi Gemmell · From: New Zealand

After something of a year-long journey, I received my LDG before the weekend and have got a decent strobe tuner and a wrench coming for the hex tuners.

I hope to update you all again soon, but after tuning up to E9 and messing around with 10 strings and no pedals, I've decided that I will give it six months to gain some perspective as recommended.

Recently a Sierra U-12 became available on a local auction site which brought the thought of Universal back into my mind, but I will not have the opportunity to make a step in that direction until 2024.
_________________
Commodore S-8
John Allison S-8
JB Frypan S-8
Sho~Bud LDG SD-10
1966 Fender Super Reverb

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

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