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Topic: Yes, but which 8 string B11th tuning . . . . |
Carey Hofer
From:
South Dakota, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2022 1:21 pm |
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| I have decided to switch from 8 string C6th high tuning on my lap steel, to B11th tuning. But. . . which one should I use and why? I have been researching all the threads on the forum and any other place I can find, but haven't been able to decide. Oh well, guess that's what Tylenol is for. Any suggestions anyone? There are evidently several to choose from. |
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Frank Welsh
From:
Upstate New York, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2022 1:40 pm
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Being a "Hawaii Calls" type fan, I use a B11th from high to low:
E
C#
A
F#
D#
B
F#
B
This gives a dramatic sweep from that deep low B on up and also a nice low major chord on the low five strings.
My repertoire is dependent on having both C6th and B11th available on my double eight but if I were limited to a single neck, I would seriously consider tuning to A6th and when I needed a B11th, I could quickly tune that fifth string down from an E to a D# and have a dense sounding B11th tuning. Most of my C6th repertoire could then be played on the A6th with a bit of woodshedding on my part.
If you really want to stick to B11th for everything, I would like to recommend the deeper sounding one with the low B like Barney Isaacs and Jules Ah See used. B11th can certainly play Hawaiian but I found it can go far beyond Hawaiian into jazz, pop and others if you just spend some serious time with it. Good luck. |
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Duane Becker
From:
Elk,Wa 99009 USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2022 3:46 pm
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| I'm a Jules fan myself and I would have nothing but the low B on my 8th string. |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 12 Feb 2022 4:22 pm
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The only way to find out is to experiment!
B11th variants (B1 is the super low B, B2 an octave higher, etc. The lowest string on a 5-string bass is an octave lower yet, or B0)
E C# A F# D# B A B1 - Basil Henriques
E C# A F# D# B F# B1 - Jules Ah See
E C# A F# D# C# A F#2 - Anthony Locke
E C# A F# D# C# A B1 - Jerry Byrd
E C# A F# D# C# B A2 - Doug Beaumier
F# E C# A F# D# C# B2 - B11th with a high F# (I like this variation a lot!)
modified/expanded versions:
E D C# A F# D# C# A - Rich Sullivan Dmaj9/B11th
G# E C# A F# D# B - B13th (see following tuning)
E C A F D B - David Kelii - G11th (transposed to B it would be G# E C# A F# D#)
G E C A F D B G - Jack Aldrich - Extended G11th
G# E C# A F# D B G# - Dick Sanft - E11/E13th (transposed to B it would be D# B G# E C# A F# D#)
E D C# B A F# D# C - My quasi-combination of B11th and Leavitt tuning, one of my necks on my Fender. Bottom 6 strings are Leavitt down a half step. Tons of chords with the huge trade off of the fat, B11th low end...
E C B A G F# E (C# or D)- D11/A13th,(Transposed to B it would be: C# A G# F# E D# C# [A# or B]). This is a retuning, that I have been experimenting with, of my C Diatonic neck (E C B A G F E C#) based on Jerry Byrd's D9th (E C A F# E C# C) retuning of his C6/A7th. |
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Rich Sullivan
From:
Nelson, NH 03457
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Posted 13 Feb 2022 10:35 am
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I think you could make a valid argument for any of the variations listed, it just comes down to what fits your needs. When I first tried B11 long ago, I was using Byrd's tuning with the low B. But I just could not get an acceptable tone for that low B with the guitar and amp I had at the time. It just sounded flabby. So I changed to F# (see the tuning listed for Anthony Locke). The one obvious advantage of that tuning, is that all you have to do is raise the 5th string a half step and you are in A6 (if you want to do that.) I played that way for quite a while before I decided to experiment, and ended up with the tuning I now use, which is also listed. I could list what I see as the advantages to this, but I know that it is a "fringe" tuning and probably would not interest most players. But briefly, the increased chordal and scale possibilities are offset by the increased difficulty of grips. Much like the Alkire tuning, except there is only one added chromatic string instead of a whole bunch of them.
If you are playing unaccompanied, it is nice to have a low B. If you plan to play with others, it is not as necessary (IMO), because the guitar or bass will almost certainly play that note. The advantage to not having the B in the tuning is that there are actually increased chordal possibilities. Ok, a little chord theory talk. Probably some of this is old hat, but here goes. For most of the tuning variations, the top 4 strings are an A6 chord and all of the strings except the first string are a B9 chord. You pretty much won't be playing a B11 chord across all of the strings. But a big strum across all the strings below the top string is one of the prettiest sounds there is. If a 9th chord is rootless (no B string in the tuning), it has the same 4 notes as both a minor 6th chord or a half-diminished chord. For example, a strum across all the strings except the first string, and at the 8th fret of one of the tunings without B, will include only 4 notes. B, D, F, A. This can be used as either a rootless G9, a Dm6, or a Bm7b5 (half-diminished chord). If the B is present in the tuning, you need to avoid it for the m6 or m7b5 chords. Maybe not a big deal to some, but something to consider. |
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Carey Hofer
From:
South Dakota, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2022 11:11 am
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All really helpful guys. A few questions for Joe:
1. Dumb question but which is the higher pitch, B1 or B2
2. Doug B's tuning on the lower 3 strings C#, B and A: is the A2 1 or 2 octaves from the C# and is the A step or an octave plus from the B? (Same type of question for the Bryd tuning)
Anyone: I am well versed in theory so I appreciate the theory comments.
3. Last question. In general how do you approach learning a new tuning? For me (as a newer player on 8 string C6 high) I just started by finding my 1,4 and 5 and their coresponding minors and then ways to get between them without jumping a bunch of frets, single note runs between them, locatin extensions like 6ths, 9ths,etc. Does that sound reasonable? |
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Rich Sullivan
From:
Nelson, NH 03457
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Posted 13 Feb 2022 11:34 am
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Carey,
The short answer to Question #3 is yes, your method works. Also look into using the 1 chord position as a 4 chord position, etc., and this will both open new possibilities and shorten the jumps. I would also suggest learning a few tunes, especially ones you already know, in the new tuning, as early as possible to sort of lock in the landscape. |
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Carey Hofer
From:
South Dakota, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2022 12:01 pm
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I will try that Rich. Like Joe Pass said: LEARN TUNES.
Hey Joe- Duh, answered my own B1, B2 question. It was right there at the top of your email in front of God and everybody. B2 is a higher pitch than B1. |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 14 Feb 2022 4:49 am
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Love this thread!
I'm in the JAS, low tuned version camp myself...1-5-1-3-5-b7-9-11. It's setup on a guitar that has a Lace Alumitone Bass Bar for the pickup and the tone is just huge on those low chords, as long as the amp can produce it...deep and vast sounding!
I think the Jerry Byrd version uses an extra ninth on the 6th string. If you've got great picking discipline, maybe a nice addition, but I like the strummability of the simpler tuning.
It would be difficult for me to live in B11 "full time" but for some songs, I can just imagine no other way. Hana, Sand, How'd Ya Do, for example, just scream B11. An old version of Lovely Hula Girl (Alfred Apaka with Danny Stewart) also sounds like B11, although I've not worked it out in detail.
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Tom Campbell
From:
Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2022 8:01 am
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I dedicated one pedal on my pedal steel to the Doug Beaumier
version. It took four "string-pulls" to achieve it, but it is a powerful tuning! |
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Carey Hofer
From:
South Dakota, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2022 8:01 pm
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| Thanks for the info Joe. |
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Carey Hofer
From:
South Dakota, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2022 8:08 pm
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"Yeah, but which E13th"? Didn't catch that at first. Your a funny guy Joe.  |
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