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Topic: Player acceptance, lap vs. pedal steel guitars? |
Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 8:32 am |
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I've always had the suspicion that there is wider player acceptance of the lap steel in "non-traditional" (aka popular) genre's than the use of pedal steel guitar in similar situations.
Agree (or not) with this premise? If so (or not) why?
No scientific polling has been conducted. 
hp
_________________
Howard Parker
03\' Carter D-10
70\'s Dekley D-10
52\' Fender Custom
Many guitars by Paul Beard
Listowner Resoguit-L |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 8:49 am
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Most non-steel players (even many country musicians) don't have a clue and generally call any steel - with or without pedals - a pedal steel (or sometimes "slide guitar").
If I'm asked to do a session, I often ask if they want pedal or non-pedal and generally they don't know and leave it up to me. |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 9:03 am
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Maybe my question is too obtuse.
It's the attitude of some pedal steel and lap steel PLAYERS about the use of these instruments in a "non-traditional" context.
An over simplification:
Lap steel in rock = good!
Pedal Steel in rock = bad
Is that any clearer? |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 9:23 am
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Either way, it’s treated like a curiosity in most other contexts with some exceptions. Usually they are looking for vibe. Both instruments are capable of that. I think that lap steel has a reputation for being more a blues machine than pedal steel, if that’s what you mean.
There is a myopic view of these instruments, and that includes in the minds of many steel players as well—not so much the up and coming generation. |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 9:30 am
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I do understand.
Perhaps I just imagine the pedal players RESIST taking the instrument to other places.
Or maybe just a vocal segment of players, resolved to maintain a status quo.
Heck even the "lowly" Weissenborn is popping up all over the place these days:
Some funky music. |
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 9:37 am
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Maybe if Lindley had played pedal steel on “Running on Empty” it would be different….😎
I agree that lap steel tends to sound more bluesy, which seems to fit more rock type songs. Big generalization I realize.
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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John Larson
From:
Pennsyltucky, USA
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 9:58 am
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Depends on the rock.
70s laurel canyon/singer songwriter/country rock used a healthy amount of PSG. The 70s seemed to have been the heyday of PSG in rock as the timbre of the instrument can add space and atmosphere to a track. I feel it wanned when synthesizers became ubiquitous but its come back a bit for those wanting that 70s sound that we now call americana. Greg Liesz is probably the most visible person playing PSG in rock.
A short list
Bon Iver - Beth/Rest
Rolling Stones - Torn & Frayed
George Harrison - I Live For You
Son Volt - Left a Slide
Yes - And You and I
Steely Dan - Pearl of the Quarter
Doobie Brothers - South City Midnight Lady
Grateful Dead - Dire Wolf
CSNY - Teach Your Children
NRPS - Death & Destructuon (Buddy Cage drops the PSG equivalent of Comfortably Numb here), Last Lonely Eagle
Marshall Tucker Band - Fire on the Mountain
Bob Dylan - Lay, Lady, Lay
Elton John - Tiny Dancer
David Crosby - Laughing
Graham Nash - I Used to Be A King
Neil Young - Heart of Gold
The Byrds - You Aint Goin Nowhere, Hickory Wind, 100 Years From Now
Flying Burrito Brothers - Christine's Tune
Counting Crows - Round Here
Sheryl Crow - I Shall Believe
Eagles - Ol' 55
Parliament - Little Ole Country Boy (not really rock but its Paul Franklin's first recorded session ever so thats kinda cool)
Pink Floyd - The Great Gig in the Sky (does it count Gilmour played it on a Fender PSG but didnt use any of the changes)
Bruce Springsteen - Mansion on the Hill (Live in NYC), Highway Patrolman (Live in Dublin)
Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms, Walk of Life (both from the On The Night live album)
Poco - Bad Weather
Jimmy Buffett - He Went to Paris
Billy Joel - You're My Home, Light as the Breeze
Manassas - Colorado
Megadeth - A Secret Place
Ween - Powder Blue
Uncle Tupelo - Anodyne
Drive-By Truckers - Two Daughters & A Beautiful Wife
Eric Clapton - Tears in Heaven (original version)
Bob Weir - Looks Like Rain
Jerry Garcia - The Wheel
Steve Earl - Fearless Heart
Wilco - Far, Far Away, The Lonely 1
Gin Blossoms - Cheatin'
Paul Simon - Graceland
Any percieved aceptance of lap over psg probably has more to do with lap steel being seen as a "blues" instrument and psg as a "country" instrument.
_________________
Rejoice in the Lord, O ye righteous; praise is meet for the upright. Give praise to the Lord with the harp, chant unto Him with the ten-stringed psaltery. Sing unto Him a new song, chant well unto Him with jubilation. For the word of the Lord is true, and all His works are in faithfulness. The Lord loveth mercy and judgement; the earth is full of the mercy of the Lord.
- Psalm 33:1-5 |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 10:03 am
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When you said player acceptance of steel guitar in popular genres, I took that to mean other musicians, not steel players. Glad you clarified.
But I think that both many steel players and many non-steel player musicians have either intentionally or unintentionally typecast steel guitar. Definitely - some of both are very vocal about this. But I think there is a tendency for quite a lot of other musicians (non-steel players), as well as some steel players, to tacitly assume that, e.g., "pedal steel is not a blues/rock/jazz/R&B/hip-hop/whatever" instrument. I personally don't find much hostility to the idea of using steel, but a fair amount of inertia to trying to fit steel into contexts outside of those for which they are traditionally thought to fit - e.g., pedal steel for Country/Americana, nonpedal for Hawaiian, Western Swing, and so on.
When I started playing steel, I had a couple of band mates (who were used to me playing guitar in blues, jazz, bluegrass, and rock/rockabilly contexts) call me Don Ho and ask where my Hawaiian shirt was. They were sort of joking, and then again, sort of not joking. 
As far as the difference between pedal steel and nonpedal steel goes - well, pedals make it easier to function with less sliding, and I see no pedals as more closely related to slide guitar, which of course has a long history in blues. But I don't see why either pedals or no pedals can't be equally effective. But a lap steel definitely takes up a smaller footprint on small stages and is quite a lot 'less fiddly' than pedal steel - there are gigs where I specifically choose to use lap steel for those reasons. Or sometimes I just have to say, 'screw it', and play guitar and slide guitar. Not everyone is open to steel guitar. |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 10:07 am
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John,
Do you think there was greater acceptance & experimentation amongst the players (and session producers) during that decade?
I also acknowledge Mike's thought about the latest generation of players. Those who might not be all that visible on our SGF.
h |
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Edward Dixon
From:
Crestview Florida
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 10:09 am
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The idea of "traditional", to me, seems counter productive to creativity. The traditional can teach us what was done but as artists we study the past in order to create something new.
I say that as a multi-instrument musician since '64. There is a theory about music but no rules, go for it. If nobody will listen stop doing it. e.g. I play Hotel California on a banjo and it works for me.
Have you heard of Luna Lee?
Ghost Riders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bh-yYk4p_o
Ring of Fire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD822-5se74
YMMV
Ed
_________________
"Faith don't need no second opinion." |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 10:22 am
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I'm still not positive how you mean it but it doesn't really matter.
Playing non-honky tonk gigs is a great reminder to myself that while certain pedal steel signature sounds are fantastic and are the first reasons I took up the instrument, many of them become mindless habits rather than deliberate musical expressions. So if I squeeze the A pedal just because it's a thing I do....and bring twang to a singer/songwriter's song that has less to do with country than just....music....it is like throwing the wrong ingredient into a recipe. I think that this is what people expect a pedal steel to bring and it might not be what they want to hear in their music.
I love playing country music but I hate for it to be assumed that that is how I am going to play because I play pedal steel. And it is my own fault if those mindless habits make people think that I am wrong for a gig or a song. I aim to play to the song, to the artist and I need to play mindfully and break the tendency to do stuff from muscle memory which is just the opposite. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 10:52 am
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It's probably correct to say that lap steel is becoming more "accepted". And I would say that, as an instrument, that's primarily because it's easier to accept, and to play. There are no pedals, no levers, no hysteresis, no cabinet drop, and no huge amps required. They're also more inexpensive. But cost aside, people always gravitate away from complexity, and towards things that are simpler to understand and operate. So pedal steel, by it's constant added complexity, will likely continue on a downward trend.
That's not really an opinion, that's just the way things are.  |
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John Larson
From:
Pennsyltucky, USA
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 11:18 am
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| Howard Parker wrote: |
John,
Do you think there was greater acceptance & experimentation amongst the players (and session producers) during that decade?
I also acknowledge Mike's thought about the latest generation of players. Those who might not be all that visible on our SGF.
h |
I think a lot of it had to do with the proximity of the LA country-rock scene to Bakersfield there was a lot of cross pollination going on in California. Jerry Garcia started playing steel after hearing Tom Brumley on "Together Again."
_________________
Rejoice in the Lord, O ye righteous; praise is meet for the upright. Give praise to the Lord with the harp, chant unto Him with the ten-stringed psaltery. Sing unto Him a new song, chant well unto Him with jubilation. For the word of the Lord is true, and all His works are in faithfulness. The Lord loveth mercy and judgement; the earth is full of the mercy of the Lord.
- Psalm 33:1-5 |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 1:10 pm
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there's a sizable amount of pedal steel players for whom the instrument starts and stops with standard E9 tuning and who think the instrument is good for Ray Price shuffles and little else. lap steel isn't bound by such beliefs.
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Harry Teachman
From:
South Dartmouth,Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 1:46 pm
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To expand a bit about what Scott said.....a large percentage of pedal steel players (myself included) learned the instrument through country music. Just about all instruction available on the internet, with the exception of the Paul Franklin courses and a few others, is geared towards legacy licks and songs from country music. So, try to fit that stuff into rock.....obviously,it ain't gonna happen.
The pedal steel can fit into rock and roll, after all it IS a guitar, it just needs to be played to fit the music. It hasn't been taken there yet. |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 2:15 pm
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| Harry Teachman wrote: |
| It hasn't been taken there yet. |
it has been taken there since the 50s by the likes of Buddy Emmons, John Hughey, even Chuck Berry. a few years later by guys like Sneaky Pete, Rusty Young, and Al Perkins. more recently by guys like Paul Franklin, Greg Leisz, and Robert Randolph.
granted, a lot of steel players haven't been listening 
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 3:29 pm
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| John Larson wrote: |
| A short list |
Looking forward to the long one, John 
The band I play pedal steel in doesn't know what it's called or care how it works. They just like the noise it makes and we play very little music that you would traditionally associate with pedal steel.
Oh, and they love having something big and complicated on stage
It has never occurred to me to play lap steel - I fear I might get roped into helping with the PA. It's funny, but it always takes me exactly the same time to pack up as the drummer, whoever it happens to be.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs
Last edited by Ian Rae on 8 Feb 2022 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 3:30 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
It's probably correct to say that lap steel is becoming more "accepted". And I would say that, as an instrument, that's primarily because it's easier to accept, and to play. There are no pedals, no levers, no hysteresis, no cabinet drop, and no huge amps required. They're also more inexpensive. But cost aside, people always gravitate away from complexity, and towards things that are simpler to understand and operate. So pedal steel, by it's constant added complexity, will likely continue on a downward trend.
That's not really an opinion, that's just the way things are. |
I think that the lap steel is more accepted among those who grew up listening to blues slide guitar, and later rockers like Duane Allman who played blues slide guitar. Lindley and others played blues slide guitar, but chose to do it on a lap steel for the most part. Most of the lap steel gigs I've done have been playing blues slide for the most part.
I grew up on country music and first listened to non pedal steel in that context. I loved it then and still do. But the early pedal steel stuff that I heard in the early sixties in Nashville is what really blew me away. I think there are fewer and fewer of us out here who went through that.
I have to admit that, as much as I appreciate the chops of a lot of the modern PSG players, I don't really like the playing as much as I did the early stuff. Same goes for banjo playing. It got too fancy and technical for my taste--again great chops and great players, but it just doesn't do it for me.
But it seems to me that modern lap steelers have tended to expand their choice of material, and haven't tended to go through quite the same technical gymnastics that the PSG and banjo set have. Maybe this makes it more approachable?
Don't mean to offend anyone--it's simply my personal taste, and I really do admire those folks who can play things I couldn't dream of, but probably wouldn't even if I could. Maybe I've just restated what Donny said but in way too many words!
Dave |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 3:47 pm
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| David Ball wrote: |
But it seems to me that modern lap steelers have tended to expand their choice of material, and haven't tended to go through quite the same technical gymnastics that the PSG and banjo set have. Maybe this makes it more approachable? |
Even if (presumably) the pedal steel is far more flexible & capable?
h |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 5:03 pm
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| Howard Parker wrote: |
| David Ball wrote: |
But it seems to me that modern lap steelers have tended to expand their choice of material, and haven't tended to go through quite the same technical gymnastics that the PSG and banjo set have. Maybe this makes it more approachable? |
Even if (presumably) the pedal steel is far more flexible & capable?
h |
Maybe the flexibility and capability overshadow the music behind it? Synthesizers can do anything. People still like to hear simple flattop strumming.
Simple still tends to hit the gut a lot more than fancy does. Took me a long time to realize that.
Dave |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 5:09 pm
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I'll follow up with, I've been trying to play Bebop on a single 8 C6 pedal steel lately. I don't play it well at all and never will, but it's really a challenge, and I love doing it. I wouldn't expect anyone else to love it though!
Dave |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 5:17 pm
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So, we've got all of that mechanical sophistication at our fingertips and we've signed up for "3 chords and the truth".
BTW, I'm familiar with a few of the "progressives". Attended several Susan Alcorn events. Enjoyed them immensely although I did not understand much.
I think the PSG will lumber on for the foreseeable future. I'm optimistic that there's a demographic out there that I'm not plugged into. A demographic that won't be so tied to a genre perhaps.
h |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 5:30 pm
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| Howard Parker wrote: |
So, we've got all of that mechanical sophistication at our fingertips and we've signed up for "3 chords and the truth".
BTW, I'm familiar with a few of the "progressives". Attended several Susan Alcorn events. Enjoyed them immensely although I did not understand much.
I think the PSG will lumber on for the foreseeable future. I'm optimistic that there's a demographic out there that I'm not plugged into. A demographic that won't be so tied to a genre perhaps.
h |
I think you're right. I'm an old curmudgeon. Proud to be so too, but just because a certain sound isn't my thing doesn't mean it's not good and doesn't mean that it's not going to be attractive to others.
I designed and built vacuum tube theremins back in the 90's. Got well acquainted with some of the underground (at least to me) experimental and avant garde musicians, as well as guys like Bob Moog (who was I guess like Shot or Buddy to the synth scene). Bob used to give me hell for building tube theremins when he was doing MIDI! At any rate, this very esoteric early electronic music instrument survived and thrives, although in genres far detached from its first use.
I think it's interesting though that for all the super high tech stuff that Moog did, he was still into theremins. The lap steel of the synth world.
I'm hopeful that steel guitar will survive as well. I think it will, but maybe not where we expect it to be. Which of course goes at odds with my personal taste, but that's fine. I understand that my taste isn't mainstream or even in some subset of that!
Dave |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 6:46 pm
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I'm the geezer here, so I learned lap steel at the tail end of the Hawaiian craze. I learned lots of Jerry Byrd instrumentals and would play them at dances. Served me well, because i still get an occasional gig at a Hawaiian themed party.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Feb 2022 6:56 pm
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I think what David Ball said (about playing simple) is the key. And that CAN be done on a pedal steel; we sometimes forget that. And we also forget that not everyone is impressed with a setup that can get a plethora of jazz chords or every scale note on one fret. 
Below are are 3 rock songs with simple pedal steel that stood out in my mind, and that aren't on John Larson's great list...and (here's the real kick in the ass), the first two have a pedal steel INTRO!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxALH_3qadg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSfOB8ANdWU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpGEeneO-t0
When The Carpenters did their big hit "Top of The World" the producers, for whatever reason, had two pedal steelers track, Buddy Emmons and Red Rhodes. But they chose Red Rhodes' dirt-simple intro over something Buddy could have (or maybe even did) come up with.
There's a lesson in that for all of us; a lesson that I'm just beginning to comprehend. Hopefully more will "see the light".
when in doubt, roger-out |
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