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Topic: Question about Hybrid Open D Tuning |
Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2022 7:26 am |
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I am starting to experiment with the Hybrid Open D tuning (GBDF#AD) and find tuning to be a challenge. On a straight Open D tuning (DADF#AD), I tune to Just Meantone Intonation with a root of D and the whole guitar sounds sweet. If I tune the Hybrid tuning using JMI with root of D, the G chord doesn't sound as sweet. If I change the JMI to a Root of G, the D chord goes off.
How do you tune your Hybrid tuning? Do you abandon JMI and go straight up with Equal Tempered tuning? Or do you tune each of the chords using JMI with their roots?
Karlis |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 1 Feb 2022 10:06 am
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Iām not certain that this will help, but perhaps if you tuned only the root notes, G & D, to specific frequencies, you might be able to tune the remaining strings purely by ear. You could then use those frequencies as your reference tuning from then on.
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Current Tunings:
6 String | G ā G B D G B D
7 String | G6 ā e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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Rob Fenton
From:
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 1 Feb 2022 12:41 pm
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I've never played this tuning before but I just tried it on my dobro and it worked well in JI.
D +2.0 cents
A +4.0
F# -11.7
D +2.0
B -13.7
G 0
If you want to stay a little closer to the fret lines overall maybe add 5 cents to each reading.
To tune to harmonics,
Tune string 6 to tuner
Match str 5 fret 5 to str 6 fret 4 (behind 4)
Match str 4 fret 12 to str 6 fret 7
Match str 3 fret 5 to str 6 fret 4 (behind 4)
Match str 2 fret 12 to str 4 fret 7
Match str 1 fret 12 to str 4 fret 5
I also just tried it with my Peterson Stroboclip on the Dobro setting and although they don't sweeten the fifths in either G or D tuning it's still really close to JI, just 2 cents flat each on the D, F#, and A strings relative to the G and B. |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2022 3:43 pm
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Thank you for the suggestions. Rob, your post made me dig deeper into my tuning knowledge. I plotted out the G root JMI versus the D root JMI for the six notes.
| Code: |
Note G JMI D JMI
D 2 0
A 3.9 2
F# -11.7 -13.7
D 2 0
B -13.7 -15.6
G 0 -2
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I have benders on The F# and A strings raising them to G and B respectively. If I tune the bottom GBD to G JMI to create a sweet G chord, I create a conflict with the D in the upper portion as well as the G and B on the raised strings.
If I tune the top four strings to D JMI including the raised G and B, I get sweet I IV an V chords in D but I create a conflict withe the lower G and B.
It looks like I have to choose either the G JMI or the D JMI for all of the strings to get the best voicings of the chords. I can get I IV V chords more conveniently with a D root so it looks like I will choose the D JMI.
Karlis |
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Rob Fenton
From:
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 1 Feb 2022 7:41 pm
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Ah, I see what you are saying Karlis.
Yeah, you'll have to choose one system and tune all of the strings relative to that. Nice thing is that the G and D chords are only 2 cents off from one another so I don't think anyone will notice.
It's a pretty tuning with lots of potential. You'll have to be conscious of how flat the 3rds are if using a lot of open strings just like one would with the regular G and D tunings, but in closed position it won't be a worry.
Good luck with it! |
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Brian Evans
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 2 Feb 2022 4:53 am
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| My tuning has two natural chords too, so I tune straight up and use vibrato. I don't sweeten any strings because what's good for the first chord is exactly wrong for the second chord, which ends up twice as far out. Yay equal temperament... |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2022 8:14 pm
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I tune the D strings about 5 cents sharp with a tuner, then tune everything else from there by harmonics (just intonation).
https://b0blee.bandcamp.com/album/stella
Keep in mind that the interval B to F# is a perfect 5th. Don't tune one to the 3rd of G and the other to the 3rd of D. I tune the F# first, then tune the B to that. But with your benders, you probably would want to tune the low B first, then tune the F# and high B (A raised) to that.
I also tune the 8-string D6/G that way (G B D F# A B D F#). Sounds sweet to me!
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-ššš- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2022 7:09 am
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b0b, Thanks for the suggestion but I gave up trying to tune by ear after I got my Peterson tuners (I have 4). What I have done is create JMI presets for the root notes that I have on my various instrument. I use the D JMI which I call DJI on my Strobostomp HD. The visual cues of the HD LCD help me get in tune. I can get in tune even when the furnace is running noisily next to my basement studio.
Karlis |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2022 1:38 pm
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Understood. The results are similar anyway.
Are you sure that body flex from the added tension of the benders isn't detuning the low strings?
Also, what do you mean by "Just Meantone Intonation". I always thought that Just Intonation and Meantone (Temperament) were two different systems.
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-ššš- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2022 4:44 pm
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I checked the detuning when pressing the benders and there is a very slight but real detuning of the other strings. The lower G goes very slightly flat relative to the bent G.
As far as my "Just Meantone Intonation", you are absolutely right. JI and Meantone are two different systems. The Peterson Tuner literature calls the tuning JMI and I always interpreted this incorrectly. It stands for Just Major Intonation to distinguish it from Just Minor Intonation.
There should be less than .1 cent difference in the 3rd's ratio between D-F# and G-B if the guitar is tuned to JI with a D root. This is clearly less than the difference caused by detuning with the benders.
b0b, Thank you for helping me figure this out.
Karlis |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2022 7:08 pm
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Whew! I really went down the rabbit hole trying to figure out the intersection between JI and Meantone. Glad we straightened that one out!
I don't think any human can hear a 0.1 cent difference. I assumed it was a rounding error.
You will sound more in tune with ET instruments if your roots and 3rds are equally distant from the zero mark. That's why I start out with the D strings sharp.
Happy trails! 
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-ššš- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 11 Feb 2022 2:49 pm
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I have this tuning on a lap steel right now.
Like Rob is saying, the tuning lays out nicely in JI intervals.
The cool thing is that it can be tuned diatonically 'pure' from G or from D and the overtone relationships are the same...
D major JI
D -0- R
A +2 5th
F# -14 3rd
D -0- R
B -16 6th
G - 2 4th
G major JI
D +2 5th
A +4 9th
F# -12 ma7
D +2 5th
B -14 3rd
G -0- R
Its exactly the same thing just up or down a couple cents....
That said, I find the pure tuning outlined above to be a bit extreme, and use this approach instread:
G/D/A + 4c
F#/B -4c
This way, the roots, fifths and ninth tone line up on the same 'plane' and the major seven, major third and sixths are about 8 cents flatter, whether you see it as a D tuning or G.
A simple tuner set to 441 and 439 works.
This works for any 6th tuning with the 4th on the bottom like C6/F etc, but of course your ear is the final judge and what works for some folks may not appeal to others. This is just my approach.
Last edited by Andrew Frost on 11 Feb 2022 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2022 4:23 pm
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| Andrew Frost wrote: |
That said, I find the pure tuning outlined above to be a bit extreme, and use this approach instread:
G/D/A + 4c
F#/B -4c
This way, the roots, fifths and ninth tone line up on the same 'plane' and the major seven, major third and sixths are about 8 cents flatter, whether you see it as a D tuning or G. |
I do the same in a noisy environment, except I use 5 cents because it's a mark on my tuner. Close enough! When it's quiet I use harmonics by ear. 
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-ššš- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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