Jazz backup on steel

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

I have been working out of Jamey Aebersold's book ll-V7-I progressions,vol 3 for the last couple of months. Because I'm not a fast reader I've put the patterns and exercises in BIAB first and worked on them. Now that I'm somewhat familiar with them I'm working off the CD that has just accompany tracks after each exercise. I've noticed that the piano back-up is really cool. He also has the piano chords written in the back of the book. I could put them in biab and maybe work on learning 1 a week. Any ideas or thoughts. When it comes to substitution chords expecially for backup I'm really just beginning.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Good for you. One reason Curly Chalker was held in such high esteem by steel players was his mastery of chords. Plenty of "gnat note" players, but a precious few who really have an understanding of chords, chord substitution, chord melody, etc. The Aebersold series comes from the jazz world. Those studies can be used to translate musical knowledge to all different kinds of music including country. Keep studying.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Jamey Aebersold's II-V7-I book is one of the most useful harmony instruction approaches I've ever seen. I agree completely with Bill, it applies to anything. The quality of those backup tracks is really excellent.

I haven't used BIAB, but your approach makes sense. When I was first working with this (on guitar) - one thing I seem to remember is that a lot of those exercises modulated from key center to key center real fast. Especially when starting out, it would be nice to be able to hang in a key center longer to get the feel of it - and then modulate. Of course, it's important to be able to handle quick modulations, but that takes time.

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

I am sure I'm in a minority on this issue, but
the 4th pick is an important factor in getting some 4 note voicings of jazz chords. I guess the only one I can really site as an example might be Reese Anderson. I know for certain he uses 4 picks & I also know for certain he plays some great jazz chord voicings. I'm off the soap box now!

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

I do use 3 finger picks and a thum pick. Reece kinda talked me into trying it after playing with just 2 fingers and thum for a very long time. It was truly amazing how he kinda eased me into trying it(and this was over the phone!)

Mike Shefrin · Posted 21 Sep 2006 5:03 pm

The only way I can get good jazz chord voicings on my E9 is with four note voicings. I use my thumb and first three
fingers alot in all my playing. Huge difference between three note and four note voicings.

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

I think you're right. There also is a certain sound that I really like in the Bobby Flores albums with Randy Reinhart that sounds to me like A & B pedal down with a 4 note voicing on the low notes that sounds really cool.

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

You do NOT need four notes to play "jazz" chords. In fact, usually all you need are 2 notes, the 3rd and the color note, such as the 7th, 9th or 13th. Especially when it comes to playing rhythm, less is frequently more. Let Freddie Green be your guide!

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Dig deep into jazz blues substitutions!!!!!!!

Mike Shefrin · Posted 21 Sep 2006 7:58 pm

No offense but if one is playing
a jazz standard such as Body and Soul on solo steel guitar,or even comping the changes to that tune, two note voicings will not sound as full as with four. Playing guide tones is one thing,comping is another.I can understand using two notes in backup now and then but it would be limited if you did it all the time. In thirty years of professional playing I've never seen anyone play backup for jazz using only two notes and nothing else.

[This message was edited by Mike Shefrin on 22 September 2006 at 07:53 AM.]

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

I have been looking in the back of the Aebersold book and every chord is a 4 note chord. That is not to say I would play everything JUST like the piano, but indeed that is sure where they are starting.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Do not get me wrong - Freddie Green is totally cool. It's a whole thing. But it is not everything. I absolutely must be able to get 4-note chords, or even more. Yes, in an ensemble, 2-3 note chords are often the maximum number of notes that fit. But there are times when the rich voicing makes it, at least for me.

On guitar, it's not so critical - with left-hand damping and a flatpick sweeping across the strings, complex voicings are doable. But steel is, IMO, different. The thumbpick is somewhat more limiting, at least for me.

We've discussed this many times before on the forum. Complex voicings definitely require more sonic space. But the pedal steel - in the right hands (maybe not mine) - sure fills up that space nicely - one of the big reasons I love it so much.

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

If you enjoy thick voicings, more power to you! Definitely to each his/her own. But I do stand by my statement that you do not need more than two notes to imply the harmony effectively. And since the topic of this thread is "Jazz backup on steel" and not "Jazz solo on steel" I do not take into account such styles as chord/melody in my statements. YMMV. And absolutly no offence taken or intended!

[This message was edited by Twayn Williams on 21 September 2006 at 10:07 PM.]

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

I never realized there was such a thing as a two note chord......I was taught that was an interval.....how things change over time

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

STOP! You're BOTH right! Certs IS a breath mint! Certs IS a candy mint!

(Anybody else think this thread is getting a little catty, or is it just me?)

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

The difference here in the three note chords from Freddie Green is that his sound is a percussive rhythm section sound. He might only be playing three notes for the chord , but he is damping the other strings so that when he hits the chord, the other strings are coming into play percussivly. The way those chords are usually voiced by Green is on the inside strings. That way he can whack across five or all six strings and you hear the tones of the chord, but you feel the percussive hit of the archtop guitar.

I saw him play with the Basie band in a 4500 seat theatre with no mic on the guitar and you could still hear him with the band! He was the epitome of that style of archtop big band guitar.

If you are talking about arranging a tune for chord melody and jazz and such on the pedal steel, then four note chords would be just about mandatory for most of the arrangement. You can use some three note things but you would really need to have some big full things happening also.

Mike Shefrin · Posted 22 Sep 2006 6:55 am

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I'm a lover of jazz solo chord-melody on steel. I don't think any instrument besides a keyboard is as capable of a fuller sound. For this one bag I gotta say that MORE IS MORE....More fingers, more strings, more changes. Yes alot can be done with one or two notes, and a basic copedant on steel, but if you're thinking Bill Evans type solo re-harmonizations of a progression, you need to have as few harmonic limitations as possible.

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

I'm not trying to get into a discussion about 2,3,4 or whatever chord voicing. Kinda like the cart before the horse in this case. I know guys like Bob Hoffner, Jeff Lambert and I'm sure lots of others have some good constructive feedback on this subject. Its the why and how I want to learn so I can do it myself.

[This message was edited by W Franco on 22 September 2006 at 11:30 AM.]

Ad Kersten · From: Beek en Donk, The Netherlands

I guess all Twayn was trying to say is that the root and quint will be in the bass and to get the chord "colour", the steel only needs to play the 3rd, 7th, 9th, etc.

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[This message was edited by Ad Kersten on 22 September 2006 at 11:04 AM.]

Susan Alcorn · From: Baltimore, MD, USA

I think that the Jamey Aebersol series is nice, though you do have to think of it in a different way -- you're not a six string guitarist, so the percussive rhythm like Freddie Green or what you hear in organ trios may be difficult to get. However, with three picks and a sixth tuning, it is possible to approximate some of that. It might be better to listen to some of the great pianists and, though you probably can't use all ten fingers at one time, if you listen carefully and play around with it a lot, you may be able to do some really nice "pianistic" things. Choose your chord voicings carefully and think about which notes in the chord you want to leave in or leave out. Let your ear be the guide because what sounds good on another instrument may not always sound good on a pedal steel. Also, be particular as to how you approach the strings -- your touch. This will have a big impact on whether a certain chord or voicing or string combination (also important)sounds good accompanying or not.

I use four finger picks (also as a result of a suggestion by Maurice Anderson)and think that is close to ideal. Maurice said that you can put the extra pick on your third finger and not use it until you're ready.

Another suggestion -- for playing "jazz" as opposed to playing "western swing" -- is to think about using a 6/9 tor some other more diatonc tuning rather than a C or A 6th. For example, if you have a C tuning, put a D in between your C and your E. This way you can slide easily from a 6th chord to a major 7th (kind of nice for Brazilian music), from a Quartal to a Dominant 7th, all kinds of things. Where it is not so good is if you want to strum big chords in western swing. Everything is a trade-off, so it depends upon your personal preferences.

Best of luck.

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

Thanks Susan for your very insightful reply. That Reese is a sneaky one to get you using that extra finger ain't he! As a result of his mentoring I am using a D on the 10th string for the 4 over 5 chord sound as one example. Got to take several raises off the 10th string as a result to doing that too. Did I forget to mention this is all on C-6 tuning.

[This message was edited by W Franco on 22 September 2006 at 02:09 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I particularly like the piano of Joao Gilberto, who moves through many bossa nova changes with just 3 or 4 fingers--and Count Basie on the other end of the spectrum.

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

Doug Seymour wrote:

Mike Shefrin · Posted 22 Sep 2006 5:59 pm

Twayn,I often leave out the root in my voicings and let the bass player do it and I also use my nails instead of picks on the steel. Turns out we have more in common than we thought.

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