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Topic: New National Tricone squareneck vs vintage? |
Ryan Matzen
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2022 5:12 am |
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Has anyone been able to play a vintage National Tricone with a “hollow” neck alongside a modern Tricone with a wood square neck?
If so, is there a big difference in tone?
I’ve played and owned many vintage and new National round neck guitars throughout the years. I’ve found that I have always preferred the tone of the modern (once they started using the thinner gauge metal) round neck Nationals to the tone of the vintage ones.
Knowing that at some point I will most likely want to purchase a Tricone, I have started to keep an eye out for vintage “hollow” neck Tricones and what they are actually selling for. Thus, I was wondering If I should be watching the more modern wood square neck Tricones as well. Or, is a vintage “hollow” neck the only way go?
All the best,
Ryan |
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Noah Miller
From:
Rocky Hill, CT
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Posted 20 Jan 2022 5:32 am
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I have played a number of vintage National tricones, and I have yet to find two that sound alike. I've heard from others with similar experiences. They were held together with a combination of shims and wishful thinking, and even accounting for setup, they vary widely.
As a result, I'm not sure you can get a satisfactory answer to your question. While the new Nationals are far more consistent, the old ones require a case-by-case evaluation. |
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Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
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Posted 20 Jan 2022 8:39 am tricone
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Oh gee 
I was just about to pull the trigger on an old National tricone square neck, now I'm hesitant. And I've spent weeks talking myself into it 
sigh...
Thanks for the insight Noah!
_________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
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Noah Miller
From:
Rocky Hill, CT
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Posted 20 Jan 2022 9:21 am
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| I don't mean to dissuade anyone from buying an old National; I know my own Style 4 ain't goin' nowhere! Despite the inconsistency, I've found very, very few that I'd write off altogether as "bad". I just don't think you can lump them together as having a predictable sound. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2022 12:00 pm
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You can special-order a metal hollow-neck squareneck from National....last I heard, they still were able to do that.
Or you can, for less money, get an incredibly resonant (compared to the metal ones) personalized hollow neck square neck from Ben Bonham, like I did (mine is myrtle, which is like koa, and rosewood)...(see pic)...give him a call, he likes to chat about them and knows the Nationals very well. He points out that the old German silver ones are more resonant than the new ones...but most need some care to rejuvenate them. Marc Schoenberger in California worked on design with National and is a good source for input on that.
I owned a number of early Nationals and would never trade my Bonham back for one of those - it is a whole other level of tone and sustain...
To have your very own one made, in the exact dimensions of a National, but out of your choice of wood, contact:
bensound@gorge.net (541) 490-5447 and check out his single and tricone resos, Weisses, and guitars at https://www.instagram.com/bonhamdesign/
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 20 Jan 2022 12:25 pm
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| Noah Miller wrote: |
| I don't mean to dissuade anyone from buying an old National; I know my own Style 4 ain't goin' nowhere! Despite the inconsistency, I've found very, very few that I'd write off altogether as "bad". I just don't think you can lump them together as having a predictable sound. |
I think that's pretty much the case with any resonator guitar--especially one that's as old as original tricones are these days. A little bit of setup makes a huge difference in tone.
I sold my style 4 years ago and I miss it....But still have my wood sound well/soldered strips tricone.
Dave |
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Noah Miller
From:
Rocky Hill, CT
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Posted 20 Jan 2022 1:34 pm
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| David Ball wrote: |
| Noah Miller wrote: |
| I don't mean to dissuade anyone from buying an old National; I know my own Style 4 ain't goin' nowhere! Despite the inconsistency, I've found very, very few that I'd write off altogether as "bad". I just don't think you can lump them together as having a predictable sound. |
I think that's pretty much the case with any resonator guitar--especially one that's as old as original tricones are these days. A little bit of setup makes a huge difference in tone. |
It's true that setup makes a huge difference, but the new Nationals are a lot more predictable than the old ones. I'm not saying they're better or worse, just more consistent from one to the next regardless of setup. |
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Ryan Matzen
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2022 4:57 pm
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| Noah Miller wrote: |
I have played a number of vintage National tricones, and I have yet to find two that sound alike. I've heard from others with similar experiences. They were held together with a combination of shims and wishful thinking, and even accounting for setup, they vary widely.
As a result, I'm not sure you can get a satisfactory answer to your question. While the new Nationals are far more consistent, the old ones require a case-by-case evaluation. |
True. I’ve never owned a vintage National that didn’t need quite a bit of work done to it. Or, already had a lot of work done to it. I have also found that I prefer the sound of National’s new cones to the vintage ones. So, I sold off all of my vintage Nationals and replaced them with a few new ones. The new ones are a lot more stable and consistent. And, I just think they sound better. |
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Ryan Matzen
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2022 5:09 pm
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| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
You can special-order a metal hollow-neck squareneck from National....last I heard, they still were able to do that.
Or you can, for less money, get an incredibly resonant (compared to the metal ones) personalized hollow neck square neck from Ben Bonham, like I did (mine is myrtle, which is like koa, and rosewood)...(see pic)...give him a call, he likes to chat about them and knows the Nationals very well. He points out that the old German silver ones are more resonant than the new ones...but most need some care to rejuvenate them. Marc Schoenberger in California worked on design with National and is a good source for input on that.
I owned a number of early Nationals and would never trade my Bonham back for one of those - it is a whole other level of tone and sustain...
To have your very own one made, in the exact dimensions of a National, but out of your choice of wood, contact:
bensound@gorge.net (541) 490-5447 and check out his single and tricone resos, Weisses, and guitars at https://www.instagram.com/bonhamdesign/
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I was told that National has now quit making the metal “hollow” necks. But, they will make one with a wooden square neck.
I’ve seen/heard wooden Tricones made by a European builder that had a real nice tone. But, although I have seen/heard some of Ben Bonham‘s single cones, I have yet to see/hear any of his hollow neck Tricones in action. Are there any YouTube videos of folks playing these? His website: https://www.bonhamdesign.com has been under construction.
What do they sell for? In the past, I’ve seen his single cones sell on Reverb for well under $2000. But, I assume a hollow neck Tricone would be more expensive.
Right now, I can get a super clean vintage National “hollow” neck for $2500 (maybe a little less if I haggle). Is that a decent price? I see people asking real high prices for them. But, those don’t seem to sell. The ones that I have seen sell have gone for between $2200-$2900. So, I am thinking that $2500 is a fair price. |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 20 Jan 2022 5:44 pm
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| Noah Miller wrote: |
| David Ball wrote: |
| Noah Miller wrote: |
| I don't mean to dissuade anyone from buying an old National; I know my own Style 4 ain't goin' nowhere! Despite the inconsistency, I've found very, very few that I'd write off altogether as "bad". I just don't think you can lump them together as having a predictable sound. |
I think that's pretty much the case with any resonator guitar--especially one that's as old as original tricones are these days. A little bit of setup makes a huge difference in tone. |
It's true that setup makes a huge difference, but the new Nationals are a lot more predictable than the old ones. I'm not saying they're better or worse, just more consistent from one to the next regardless of setup. |
No doubt about that. Modern manufacturing processes vs. what they were doing back then...
CNC has taken a lot of previously tedious tasks and made them non issues. There's still plenty of room for the hand made touch, but a lot of the monotonous tasks of the past aren't much of a concern any more. More time can be spent on the finer points of lutherie.
At any rate, we live in a time of more consistent quality and more consistent tone. That's a good thing overall, but somehow it takes some of the magic away, and I think that's a shame.
But, I still listen to 78 RPM records and play them through single ended direct heated triode tube amps...guess I'm getting old.
Dave |
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Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
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Posted 21 Jan 2022 9:09 am National setup
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| David Ball wrote: |
A little bit of setup makes a huge difference in tone.
Dave |
What sort of setup are you referring to? Just nut & saddle adjustment? Or something more complex with the cones?
I've been looking for a while and haven't seen any original square neck Nationals for even $3K let alone under that. I guess everything is going up.
_________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
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Joe Burke
From:
Toronto, Canada
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Posted 21 Jan 2022 1:53 pm
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I have a newer National tricone as well a 1938 hollow neck. I really should sell one, but I really enjoy having both. I would describe the newer one as having a tighter sound, and I probably like it better, but both sound great.
Who is good at doing setups for tricones? I have wondered if my old one could benefit from a tune up. |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 21 Jan 2022 2:06 pm
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| Had one of the first tricones built. I've had new as well. My opinion, there is no magic in the originals. New sounds better and has better mechanics And playability. |
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Sebastian Müller
From:
Berlin / Germany
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Posted 21 Jan 2022 2:42 pm
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My Squareneck from 1931 needed no setup work, the cones where bad (probably right from the start) but when I swapped them the steel was ready to go.
The best Tricones I've ever played where all vintage one's but I agree that not all of them sound great.
_________________
https://hawaiian-steel-guitar.com |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 21 Jan 2022 2:58 pm Re: National setup
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| Eric Dahlhoff wrote: |
| David Ball wrote: |
A little bit of setup makes a huge difference in tone.
Dave |
What sort of setup are you referring to? Just nut & saddle adjustment? Or something more complex with the cones?
I've been looking for a while and haven't seen any original square neck Nationals for even $3K let alone under that. I guess everything is going up. |
Anything from getting the T bridge to make proper contact with the cones, to making sure the cones are seated properly on the soundwell, to making sure the nut and saddle are setup where they need to be as well as the angle of the strings from the tailpiece to the saddle. All of these make a big difference. They're more likely to be consistent on new instruments where the manufacturing tolerances are tighter.
Dave |
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Ryan Matzen
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2022 6:47 pm Re: National setup
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| Eric Dahlhoff wrote: |
| David Ball wrote: |
A little bit of setup makes a huge difference in tone.
Dave |
What sort of setup are you referring to? Just nut & saddle adjustment? Or something more complex with the cones?
I've been looking for a while and haven't seen any original square neck Nationals for even $3K let alone under that. I guess everything is going up. |
I know of two Style 1’s for sale right now for $2500. And, another at $3000 + shipping. They are in great condition and are not selling. If I am not mistaken, I believe that there is also another Style 1 listed for sale here on this forum right now for $3000. You just have to be patient and look around. I’ve seen quite a few Style 1’s priced higher. Some priced at over $4000! Those are not selling.
Last edited by Ryan Matzen on 21 Jan 2022 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ryan Matzen
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2022 6:50 pm
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| Joe Burke wrote: |
I have a newer National tricone as well a 1938 hollow neck. I really should sell one, but I really enjoy having both. I would describe the newer one as having a tighter sound, and I probably like it better, but both sound great.
Who is good at doing setups for tricones? I have wondered if my old one could benefit from a tune up. |
Does your newer Tricone have a wooden square neck? Or, does it have a “hollow” metal neck? |
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Ryan Matzen
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2022 6:57 pm
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| Had one of the first tricones built. I've had new as well. My opinion, there is no magic in the originals. New sounds better and has better mechanics And playability. |
That’s how I have grown to feel about the round neck Nationals (round neck Tricones included). I just didn’t know if the (not really hollow) “hollow” necks made much of a difference in tone. |
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Ryan Matzen
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2022 8:25 pm
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| Sebastian Müller wrote: |
My Squareneck from 1931 needed no setup work, the cones where bad (probably right from the start) but when I swapped them the steel was ready to go.
The best Tricones I've ever played where all vintage one's but I agree that not all of them sound great. |
Although, I realize that it is not the 100% pure acoustic tone, I think that the sound that you get from your vintage Tricone on your YouTube videos is sublime. I don’t think it gets much better than that.
Have you ever been able to a compare the tone of your Tricone to one with a wood square neck? If so, was the tone difference huge?
On a side note, I just finished installing a new set of strings on my single cone. And, I tuned it up to A-Hibass. It sounds fantastic! I still don’t have a bullet bar (still delayed in shipping) But, I did mess around a bit a little with a glass bottleneck and a brass slide that I had on hand. And, it sounds really good. I am actually pretty amazed. Thanks for your help. |
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Glenn Wilde
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2022 10:36 am Re: National setup
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| Ryan Matzen wrote: |
| Eric Dahlhoff wrote: |
| David Ball wrote: |
A little bit of setup makes a huge difference in tone.
Dave |
What sort of setup are you referring to? Just nut & saddle adjustment? Or something more complex with the cones?
I've been looking for a while and haven't seen any original square neck Nationals for even $3K let alone under that. I guess everything is going up. |
I know of two Style 1’s for sale right now for $2500. And, another at $3000 + shipping. They are in great condition and are not selling. If I am not mistaken, I believe that there is also another Style 1 listed for sale here on this forum right now for $3000. You just have to be patient and look around. I’ve seen quite a few Style 1’s priced higher. Some priced at over $4000! Those are not selling. |
I think $2500.00 is a good price for a style 1, $4000.00, I'm expecting an engraved model. I want one pretty badly and I'm a bit romantic about the old ones, regardless of if they're actually better. The way i feel about an instrument is very important to me. There is an absolutely stunning style 3 for $6000.00 over on Reso Hangout, i think its a good price. |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 22 Jan 2022 11:44 am
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I've had quite a few Nationals over the years, Style 1, 2 and 4 among tricones. Don't know why I never got a 3...
Anyway, the best sounding tricone I've ever had is one that was allegedly made in France in the 20's. I got it in pieces and put a set of National cones and a National bridge in it. Amazing guitar. The square neck has a hollowed out place to fit over the player's leg. It weighs a lot more than a National--much thicker metal. Sure sounds great.
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 22 Jan 2022 11:56 am
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I’ve owned a few Style 1s and 1.5s from 1929 and 1930. The 29 Style 1 I owned and played with The Moonlighters was the finest tricone I have ever heard in person. It recorded really well and was a great performing guitar. I have played a few dogs but not many. Honestly, I haven’t played any of the newer instruments besides the 90s Polychrome Tricone (roundneck) and a Chinese-made guitar that the importer, Hap Kuffner, asked me to check it out years ago.
I will say, I may have been extremely lucky with my early Nationals, but they were sweet and singing, but nasty when you wanted them to be. |
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Joe Burke
From:
Toronto, Canada
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Posted 22 Jan 2022 4:33 pm
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Does your newer Tricone have a wooden square neck? Or, does it have a “hollow” metal neck?[/quote]
My newer tricone has a wooden neck. |
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Ryan Matzen
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2022 5:07 pm
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| David Ball wrote: |
I've had quite a few Nationals over the years, Style 1, 2 and 4 among tricones. Don't know why I never got a 3...
Anyway, the best sounding tricone I've ever had is one that was allegedly made in France in the 20's. I got it in pieces and put a set of National cones and a National bridge in it. Amazing guitar. The square neck has a hollowed out place to fit over the player's leg. It weighs a lot more than a National--much thicker metal. Sure sounds great.
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That’s interesting. I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a French Tricone before. |
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Sebastian Müller
From:
Berlin / Germany
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 1:02 am
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| Ryan Matzen wrote: |
| Sebastian Müller wrote: |
My Squareneck from 1931 needed no setup work, the cones where bad (probably right from the start) but when I swapped them the steel was ready to go.
The best Tricones I've ever played where all vintage one's but I agree that not all of them sound great. |
Although, I realize that it is not the 100% pure acoustic tone, I think that the sound that you get from your vintage Tricone on your YouTube videos is sublime. I don’t think it gets much better than that.
Have you ever been able to a compare the tone of your Tricone to one with a wood square neck? If so, was the tone difference huge?
On a side note, I just finished installing a new set of strings on my single cone. And, I tuned it up to A-Hibass. It sounds fantastic! I still don’t have a bullet bar (still delayed in shipping) But, I did mess around a bit a little with a glass bottleneck and a brass slide that I had on hand. And, it sounds really good. I am actually pretty amazed. Thanks for your help. |
Thanks for the kind words Ryan, glad you like A Hi-Bass. Actually everybody I know who tried out A-Higbass on a Tricone sticks with it. I do own a Republic Tricone with a wooden Squareneck in which I installed the same HotRod cones as on my old one. That guitar is definitely louder than my original one, it is a good sound but I prefer how 'sweet' and warm the old one sounds. I also have the feeling that it took some time for the cones to break in, that is very subjective though. I once played a NRP (non hollow Squareneck) long time ago and in G Lowbass, so hard to compare. I would say it was better than my Republic but also more in the loud and clear direction and less warm than my vintage one. I would love to check a new one out for sure, especially a hollow neck.
_________________
https://hawaiian-steel-guitar.com |
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