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Topic: Question on splits. |
colin mcintosh
From:
Australia
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Posted 12 Jan 2022 8:20 pm |
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Just looking a pics of guitars with splits, it looks like the tuning screw adjusts against the top section of the finger. Anyone confirm this?
I'm wondering if, given the right measurements it might be possible to drill and tap holes to install on a non split guitar. I own a Carter12. Cheers. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 9:25 am
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No reason why not in principle. I have built an instrument using split screws and I now own two further ones the same.
Because the screws act high up on the finger they need to be as low as possible (i.e. as far from the centre of the axle as they can be) to give the best accuracy and stability.
I've never been in the same room as a Carter, so I can't advise you in practice. Others will, I'm sure.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 10:14 am
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I think it's risky to drill a hole in a Carter finger. They are pretty thin...
That may be why they incorporated the 'extra rod' method to do splits. It's another pull under the guitar, just like any other.
Here is a rodding chart for a Carter 12U that shows where to put the extra rod to do a split to get a G note on the 6th string (using the knee lever that lowers the 6th string a whole step along with the B-pedal). Once you understand the concept -- and the correct order to follow to tune a split (not obvious) -- you can apply this method to add other splits to the guitar.
Carter 12U rodding chart. See the line marked "Split"
http://steelguitar.com/roddingS12.html
And here is the "legend" so you'll understand the numbering scheme used for changer-holes and bellcrank-slots in the above chart:
http://steelguitar.com/rodding.html
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Last edited by Tucker Jackson on 13 Jan 2022 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 10:32 am
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You drill the rear of the changer, not the finger.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 10:42 am
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I play one but it's not in front of me. I think the angle and design front of the changer mount would make it tricky without some machine shop set up and precise jigging.
Besides that, the position that the string fits on the roller finger may also interfere with a straight lane for a split screw.
I'm sure there is someone here who has examined things more closely and can confirm or deny, but I've not ever seen any examples of this being done to Carters. [We know that almost anything is possible under the right circumstances though.]
I've rigged a few changers with splits and I've found these things too late. That's all I'm going to say. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 10:50 am
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Carter changer mountings are not like the one Ian posted. It's a very thin flange mounted at an angle as Jerry pointed out. Installing a split screw there is hard no-go. And utterly unnecessary if you just add a rod under the guitar. They are easier to tune, too.
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 12:43 pm
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Tucker, yes, now I've seen the shape of the Carter it's obviously not a candidate for drilling!
The extra-rod method is superior, but it needs room and a spare hole in the changer. On a straight E9 it shouldn't ever be a problem, but on an 8x8 uni it gets a bit busy under there 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 12:50 pm
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I disagree on the superiority of the extra rod method. The screw method is the most positive stop possible on an all pull guitar. It's also takes up no space on your mechanicals underneath.
An added feature of the stop screw method is that you can use them as a positive stop on any/all of your lowered strings. After all, that's all it does is tune your final lowered note. A feature often, if not nearly always, overlooked by players unfamiliar.
For me, it's a lot easier to tune also, but to each his own.
Moot point here, as I don't think it's feasible on a Carter without some serious machining. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 1:37 pm
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Jerry is right about using the screws for extra stopping power. It's a good argument for fitting them on every string just in case. The Williams in my photo has them only for splits, but my Excel has them everywhere and they can be useful.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 1:53 pm
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| FWIW, I did see an MCI which has a similarly angled changer mount or neck with machined splits. I believe it was one that was modded by Infinty's Frank Carter. I doubt there's enough meat on the Carter to accomplish that however. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 4:04 pm
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
An added feature of the stop screw method is that you can use them as a positive stop on any/all of your lowered strings. After all, that's all it does is tune your final lowered note. A feature often, if not nearly always, overlooked by players unfamiliar. |
That makes sense. I wonder why people don't tune all their lowers with those -- and leave the nylon nuts alone? Assuming the guitar is fitting with screws for all the strings... Or maybe the question is for the builders: why not put screws on every string as the default to get the most positive stop for tuning lowers? Is it a matter of expense? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 4:49 pm
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Not much expense involved - they just haven't had the benefit of Jerry's wisdom
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 13 Jan 2022 5:27 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Not much expense involved - they just haven't had the benefit of Jerry's wisdom |
Well Ian, there are many others who would take issue with that statement. 
I see a lot of confusion exists conerning splits. I think they are the most important feature to come along in a long time and the most misunderstood.
I think the nomenclature is one of the biggest causes.
The screws don't do anything but give you an alternate way of tuning the final lower note. The common lower nylon tuner takes another role in tuning the split note you get when using a raise and a lower together to get a specific note that is somewhere between the single raise and single lower.
Yes, you must have enough slack and movement in both the changer lower nylon and the so called split screws to accomplish your complement of lowers, but following that tweaks are all that's necessary.
Other things are possible too. Just takes some experimenting and understanding of the mechanism. |
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colin mcintosh
From:
Australia
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Posted 14 Jan 2022 12:50 am
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| Thanks for the replies. On second thoughts it doesn't look doable. Cheers. |
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Ron Hogan
From:
Nashville, TN, usa
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Al Evans
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2022 7:00 am
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
| ...An added feature of the stop screw method is that you can use them as a positive stop on any/all of your lowered strings. After all, that's all it does is tune your final lowered note. |
A nit-picky detail: It tunes the lowest lowered note you can get on that string, from this and any other change.
For example, you use the split screw to tune the lower for the 5th string, which you want LKV to lower to a C with the A pedal pressed or a Bb otherwise. Everything is good until you decide to add a Franklin pedal and lower it to an A.
And, if you're not too swuft, you scratch holes in your head trying to figure out why you can't get it down to A, no matter what you do...
--Al Evans
_________________
2018 MSA Legend, 2018 ZumSteel Encore, 2015 Mullen G2, G&L S-500, G&L ASAT, G&L LB-100, Godin A4 Fretless, Kinscherff High Noon |
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colin mcintosh
From:
Australia
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Posted 15 Jan 2022 2:45 pm
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| Al, try scratching your head without finger picks. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2022 3:16 pm
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| Al Evans wrote: |
| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
| ...An added feature of the stop screw method is that you can use them as a positive stop on any/all of your lowered strings. After all, that's all it does is tune your final lowered note. |
A nit-picky detail: It tunes the lowest lowered note you can get on that string, from this and any other change.
For example, you use the split screw to tune the lower for the 5th string, which you want LKV to lower to a C with the A pedal pressed or a Bb otherwise. Everything is good until you decide to add a Franklin pedal and lower it to an A.
And, if you're not too swuft, you scratch holes in your head trying to figure out why you can't get it down to A, no matter what you do...
--Al Evans |
As I understand it, if you want to split your A-pedal B-to-C# raise, with your B-Bb lower-lever (to have a tune-able C-note), AND have the Franklin-pedal (lowering the B-to-A), then you need to use the two-rod method on your B-to-Bb lower-lever for the Split.
The Endplate screw then tunes the A-note on the B-to-A lower on the Franklin-Pedal. |
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