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Topic: New Member, looking for advice on first purchase |
Brian Spratt
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 10:49 am |
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Hello, new member here. First, let me say that this is an excellent community here, and I’ve learned a great deal just spending time here and reading. I am looking to buy my first pedal steel and I have a few questions that hopefully aren’t terribly obvious or repetitive.
A little background: I’ve been playing electric guitar for 20+ years… lots of styles, but I really enjoy classic country and in terms of steel guitar sounds, I’d say the 70’s to mid-80’s really capture the sound in my head for what I want to play.
Based on reading suggestions, I started out with the following check list of must-have technical features:
3 pedals, 4 knee levers minimum
Changer type should be “all-pull”
3 Raisers and 3 Lowers
Aside from the technical must-haves, here are my personal preferences:
Aesthetic:
I want something with a classic-vintage sort of vibe. Pictures of old Sho-Buds and Emmons guitars just have a look that speaks to me. A vintage styled logo, polished aluminum ends, the stair-stepped aluminum keyhead, etc. I am still learning what these old models were and what all the parts of them are, so its hard to explain – I just kind of know it when I see it. It’s like old Fender guitars – even if it’s a brand new Fender, I gravitate toward the ones that are based on the ones from the 50’s and 60’s. So I think my taste naturally leans that way when I look at steel guitars.
Budget:
I’d really like to find something under $2500, but for the right deal I might budge slightly.
For new guitars, I’ve looked pretty closely at the ZumSteel Encore, GFI Expo, Brisco Bud, Justice S10-Pro and S10-Jr, and the Mullen Discovery. Of those guitars, not all of them actually meet the technical requirements above. All things considered among the new guitars, the ZumSteel Encore seems to check the boxes above pretty well. But I’m open to suggestions or input as I’m still learning and figuring all this out.
For used guitars, I have a much more difficult time figuring out what I would need. I’ve seen Sho-bud guitars that look really great in my price range, but there’s no manufacturer’s website or anything that will detail out all the technical specs. And my knowledge is limited enough that I can’t just look at pictures and know what I’m seeing (i.e. changers, raises, lowers, etc.). For example, I know a lot of the older guitars are push-pull and not “all-pull”. And, just to make it more confusing, there seems to be some preference among players for push-pull guitars.
So that’s probably the first of my questions:
1) How much does the changer type matter, really? Is it just a “feel” thing? Is there an actual limitation of the instrument tuning in some way if you don’t have an all-pull? Those brand new Emmons look and sound AMAZING and they are push-pull (and also WAY out of my price range).
2) Similar to my question above – how much does having 3 raisers and 3 lowers matter, really? I understand this will put some limit on the copedent variations I would be able to use, but if I’m just trying to get the classic country Bakersfield sound and not much more, does the number of raises/lowers really matter? What exactly would I not be able to do without them?
3) The golden question: based on what I’ve described as my budget and my goal… can you recommend some specific models that I should go research? Here are a few listings (some sold already) that seem like they would be good for me… am I on the right track?
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=375420
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=375945
(a little out of my price range here, but man this one looks nice…. I could be tempted, however it only has 1 knee lever):
https://reverb.com/item/47297575-sho-bud-6139-professional-1977-fiesta-red-3-pedal-1-knee-lever-pedal-steel-guitar
Thank You,
Brian
Last edited by Brian Spratt on 20 Dec 2021 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 1:05 pm Re: New Member, looking for advice on first purchase
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| Brian Spratt wrote: |
2) how much does having 3 raisers and 3 lowers matter, really? |
It matters not nearly as much as reliable intonation, which is not always possible on many older instruments. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 1:10 pm Re: New Member, looking for advice on first purchase
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There might be a few unfixable flaws in that old Sho-Bud, so I suggest you avoid it. Also, I would not recommend the ZB for a beginner. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 1:14 pm
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You've asked a lot here, it would take a while to properly answer it all so I'm not going to try. The best advice I can offer is don't overthink it, which, with all due respect, it sound like you are. The PSG learning curve is steep, you just need to spend some in the saddle. A lot of time. Just get a good guitar and start picking, don't worrying about getting the perfect guitar. You don't need all of the "must haves" you listed for a starter guitar. Most typical 3p 4k E9 copedents only require two raises and one lower. Read b0b's E9 article here: https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/e9th/. Extra raises and lowers come in handy with more pedals and levers, or for adding compensators, etc. but when you're just starting out on PSG you don't need to worry about all of that.
There is a lot of music in a standard E9 setup. Any of the new guitars you listed would be a fine choice. I don't think Doug Earnest is taking any new orders for Encores right now but they come up used on the forum from time to time. For a used guitar, it would benefit you to make friends with an experienced local steeler to help you evaluate any you're considering before making a purchase so you don't end up with something that is going to require a lot of attention to get it into proper playing shape. I would avoid Reverb and Ebay for PSG, they tend be pricier and sellers often have no clue about what they're selling. The Sho-Bud you linked on Reverb is worth about half the asking price. Most sellers here on SGF are players and can give straight and accurate answers to any questions you might have.
I'm sure there will be more advice to follow here on some of your other questions. Best of luck, enjoy!
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 2:09 pm
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Bluntly - I would not worry about looks, vintage vibe, and all the other side-issues that guitarists frequently obsess about. I would concern myself with 1. playability - pulls that raise and lower solidly to pitch and return to pitch & stay in tune; 2. ergonomics - do you fit the steel properly in the sense that you're comfortable hitting the pedals and levers without contorting yourself; and 3. sound - when plugged into a clean-sounding amp, does it sound good. A pedal steel is as much a machine as a guitar, and the machine needs to work pretty much flawlessly to avoid endless frustration for a new player.
As already mentioned, any normal 3-pedal, 4-lever guitar that handles the Big 3 above should be fine. I personally would suggest sticking with an all-pull guitar for starters. All-pull is a straightforward design that handles modern setups easily and almost anybody that works on pedal steels can deal with an all-pull guitar. A 3-raise, 3-lower guitar is great, but as Ian states, a typical basic E9 setup needs only a 2-raise, 1-lower guitar. But since the Justice Jr. now has 3+3, it looks like a really great option if you are not so tall to preclude a more narrow S10 guitar. The Zum Encore is great if you can get one.
IMO, that 3+1 Sho Bud is way, way overpriced - I'd say double what it is really worth. I also agree with EB that I would probably avoid an old Sho Bud - or I'd add unless you know it's been certifiably gone over by a real Sho Bud expert like Ricky Davis. As a total rookie, I'd avoid a ZB period, not because they're not great-sounding guitars but because they are quirky and need special handling. Again IMO. I'd completely ignore the usual rules about preference for vintage guitars, and I'd also avoid ebay and reverb - I think most stuff I see out there is overpriced and underwhelming, and regular guitar-oriented sellers often know little to nothing about pedal steel. And that is my opinion too. |
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Brian Spratt
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 2:33 pm
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Thanks for the input here. I do appreciate it. I believe the wait time for an Encore is extensive, so I may give a more serious look at the Justice S10 Pro and Jr. When I see "3x3", I believe that means 3 pedals and 3 knee levers. But the Justice S10-Pro says "All-Pull Changer, 3x3", however doesn't the S10-Pro have 4 knee levers. Maybe its a typo, or maybe it means something different like 3-raise, 3-lower.
Last edited by Brian Spratt on 9 Dec 2021 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David Dorwart
From:
Orlando, Florida, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 2:34 pm
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| Billy Cooper in Orange VA had a new Fessenden 3 pedals 5 levers for sale at $2550 when I visited this past October. Looked and sounded great. He also had a bunch of new GFIs and quite a few used guitars also. Email him for a current list of inventory. You cannot go wrong with Wanda and him |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 2:49 pm
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| Brian Spratt wrote: |
| ...I may give a more serious look at the Justice S10 Pro and Jr... |
I don't think you can go wrong with a Justice S10 Jr., it has a 3-raise/3-lower all-pull changer and is $1595 for 3 pedal/4 knee configuration. This is a great value for brand new, quality instrument. This will keep you amused for years to come, but if you decide in a year or two you need more, or that PSG is just not for you, you could probably sell it for most or all of what you paid for it. I met Fred at the SWSGA show a couple of years ago, he's a really good guy to boot.
https://www.justicesteelguitars.com/S10%20Jr.html
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 5:52 pm
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I afraid you've over thought this a bit lol. The great thing about this forum is all of the available information, also, the terrible thing about it is all of the available information! More than anything you need a reliable instrument that stays solidly in tune and is pleasing to your ear so you enjoy playing it. The three over three changer is wretched excess 90% of the time, there's no harm at all in having it but most aren't gaining anything from it with a standard setup. Apart from newer budget guitars, I'd suggest a Sho Bud Pro I from a knowledgeable player or one that has been serviced recently. They sound great and are a real pro level instrument that is stable and easy to work on. Even if you found one with just two levers that covers 95% of anything you'd want to play, and other levers are easy to add on those guitars. I suppose I could throw in a shameless plug for the old Emmons GS10; they're uglier than sin, but have that push pull sound in spades, especially for the money. In the end, you need to be more concerned with learning to play the instrument rather than what pedal or lever to push and what it's connected to.
_________________
Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 7:35 pm Re: New Member, looking for advice on first purchase
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That guitar is pretty, but probably overpriced for what it is. When you buy, you want something that works well. Remember, a pedal guitar is more a machine than other types of guitars. "Pretty" can be junk, so make looks and "mojo" one of your last priorities. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 9:38 pm
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| Quote: |
| But the Justice S10-Pro says "All-Pull Changer, 3x3", however doesn't the S10-Pro have 4 knee levers. Maybe its a typo, or maybe it means something different like 3-raise, 3-lower. |
On every other guitar they make, they say 3x3 to explicitly mean 3-raise, 3-lower. I'm pretty sure that the S10 Pro and Pro Lite come with 3 pedals and 4 levers standard. On the S10 Pro, it also says split tuning $75, vertical knee lever (which is almost always a 5th lever) $150, and a 4th pedal $150.
Relative to the Pro models, the S10 Jr. is missing the split tuning option and probably the option to add a vertical lever or 4th pedal for extra $. And of course, the end plates are a black crinkle finish, the pedal bar appears to be wood. I don't think any of these economizations are an issue for a beginning player, especially considering the fact that it saves a big hunk of money. The legs appear to be only slightly adjustable in length, so that could be an issue for a tall player like me - I have to raise any pedal steel 2-3" - more like 3" for a single-body. But if you're not taller than around 6' or so, the height adjustment limitation is probably not an issue. |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 9:57 pm
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My two cents. My first steel was a Sho Bud D-10 Pro III. It was so much work to make it playable, there was no joy and I sold it. I then bought a 74 MSA Classic S-10. Lovely guitar, but again, took so much time, effort, and $$$ to get to the point I could actually play it. It's fine, I love the sound and the playability, but it took forever to get here. This will be my keeper steel.
My advice, buy a brand new, set up, and delivered steel. New may be costly, but in the end, the time you DON'T spend futzing around with it, will be time well spent learning how to play.
Welcome to the village of the obsessed 
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 10 Dec 2021 12:57 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But the Justice S10-Pro says "All-Pull Changer, 3x3", however doesn't the S10-Pro have 4 knee levers. Maybe its a typo, or maybe it means something different like 3-raise, 3-lower. |
On every other guitar they make, they say 3x3 to explicitly mean 3-raise, 3-lower.
Relative to the Pro models, the S10 Jr. is missing the split tuning option and probably the option to add a vertical lever or 4th pedal for extra $. And of course, the end plates are a black crinkle finish, the pedal bar appears to be wood. |
The Justice S10-Jr pedal bar is made of aluminum as is any pro guitar, not wood. It is a quality build with a few shortcuts to save man-hours, like polishing end plates,etc. I have an older one with the previous 3 raise/1 lower changer and it works great, but the newer 3 raise/3 lower is a fantastic feature for the price. It’s a very well made guitar with lots of options depending on your budget. It’s possible to add pedals or knees on later, as I have. Talk to Ron about your needs and he’ll help you out.
_________________
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 10 Dec 2021 7:09 am
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| My error then - the picture on the website looked like wood. Believe me, I think it's an extraordinary guitar for the money. |
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Bryan Crowley
From:
Crescent, Oklahoma
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Posted 10 Dec 2021 7:34 am New guitar
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| Hi Brian. You might consider contacting Ken Collins from the forum. He lives in Okc and he might be able to help you on your guitar choices.Ken is a well respected forum member and has a lifetime of experience and knowledge. He is very friendly and loves to talk steel guitars.Best of luck on your hunt for the right steel. |
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Brian Spratt
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2021 12:05 pm
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| Since my original post, I've taken a closer look at Desert Rose guitars. I spoke with Chuck Back on the phone today and discussed pricing and features. Unless I find some reason to talk myself out of it, I'll probably be ordering one of his Vintage Pro models. They're "single and a half" S10's with all-pull changer, 3-raise x 2-lower, and just incredible finishes and attention to detail. I've seen very positive comments and happy customers here on the forum. Of course if there's something I'm overlooking, please set me straight. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 10 Dec 2021 1:57 pm
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If I already didn’t have “too many”(!) I’d jump on a Desert Rose in a heartbeat.
_________________
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Brian Spratt
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 15 Dec 2021 8:40 am
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Brian,
That looks to be a well setup Emmons push pull, and it's a great platform to learn on if you're more interested in playing it than playing with it lol!
The tuning process is different than all pull guitars(however no more complicated, same number of steps) but the tuning stability is second to none, once you've tuned the changes properly you should have only to tune the strings open. You'll spend less time tuning and more time playing if that's what you're looking for.
Feel free to hit me up if you have any questions.
_________________
Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co. |
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Brian Spratt
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2021 11:13 am
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Damir has this SD10 "conversion" listed. I realize its a push-pull which seems to get divided opinions on whether that's a good idea for a beginner. I feel pretty confident in my mechanical aptitude and my ear for pitch, etc. So are there any gotchas I should be aware of on a guitar like this? It looks like the knee levers are not in the same position they would be on a factory built SD-10, but maybe that's actually a plus? I've heard some players prefer SD-10's just for the sake of knee lever placement.
Also, it doesn't have the stock pickup. It's a George L's... any thoughts on that?
Here's the listing:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=374429 |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 20 Dec 2021 11:27 am
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| Brian Spratt wrote: |
| Since my original post, I've taken a closer look at Desert Rose guitars. I spoke with Chuck Back on the phone today and discussed pricing and features. Unless I find some reason to talk myself out of it, I'll probably be ordering one of his Vintage Pro models. They're "single and a half" S10's with all-pull changer, 3-raise x 2-lower, and just incredible finishes and attention to detail. I've seen very positive comments and happy customers here on the forum. Of course if there's something I'm overlooking, please set me straight. |
Just buy the Desert Rose and get started.
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Bob |
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Brian Spratt
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2021 11:31 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| Just buy the Desert Rose and get started. |
That was the plan, but working with Chuck fell through. So its not an option any longer. Chuck was a pleasure, but its just not a good time to place an order.
For those jumping straight to the bottom post here, this is the guitar I'm considering now and looking for feedback on the non-stock pickup and custom "conversion" aspect. It looks solid to me but I'm looking for some confirmation on it being a sound choice.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=374429 |
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Eric Davidson
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2021 4:40 pm
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I still consider myself a novice so I can’t offer advice, but I can tell you my experience. I bought a Sho~Bud a few years ago to start trying to play pedal steel after playing non-pedal steel and guitar etc for years. Like you, I love the Sho-Bud aesthetic and my affinity for vintage Fenders carried over to steel and I bought a 70s Pro-1. Lots of factors were at play (ie grad school, kids were born etc) but I just never connected and took off with it and sold the Sho~Bud. In the back of my mind I always wanted to give it another shot and when I saw a 3x4 student model GFI for sale for 850$ I took the plunge again. It clicked instantly and I’ve been hooked ever since. In retrospect, I think the fact that the GFI was super smooth and stayed in tune allowed me to just focus on music and not have to fight the mechanics so much and somewhat took the blinders off for me. Full disclosure, I eventually sold the GFI and now own a 72 Emmons Push-Pull and a 71 Sho~Bud 6139 and absolutely love them both. So again, not giving advice but sharing my experience but one thing I can 99.9% guarantee is that your first steel will NOT be your last. So in my experience, finding a smooth guitar that I didn’t have to fight the mechanics of allowed me to get over the hump and get to the point to where I can’t imagine not wanting to play pedal steel. At any rate, this is just my experience so take it with a grain of salt. Good luck on your journey
Eric |
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Brett Hansen
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2021 6:02 pm
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| The guys here will steer you right. I bought an old 70s Dekley Sd10 from a forum member and its rock solid. I paid 1500 for it and felt that I got a good deal here. I'm finding that you can pretty much trust the members here, good guys all around. |
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Brian Spratt
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2022 7:36 am
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Thanks to everyone here for all the help and advice. I was able to acquire this guitar from a fellow forum member. Its a late 70's or early 80's Emmons P/P.
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