If we agree push-pulls sound so good...

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

...then why, other than Pro Mat, and a few reissue PPs from Emmons does no one build steels using the PP changer? This really does baffle me, as in the last 7 months, I have really become a devotee of the PP sound and can't understand why they aren't produced in large quantities anymore. Too expensive? Too heavy? Not enough players care? Can't believe that last one is the reason.

I'd love to have a new one someday. I played one of the reissue ones the day I bought my 1969, and it also sounded great, but not as sweet as the one I play now. Would love to hear from those with more wisdom and experience than I why the all-pull mechanism became the mechanism of choice for modern steels.

Thanks for reading my post.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

The new "Jackson" is P-P at both ends!

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I realize the old Emmons PP are in demand. But if there really was a market for NEW PP's I'm sure they would be building them. I'm not talking 10 or even 50 would buy one, but if there really was a market they would be built.

[This message was edited by Jack Stoner on 11 September 2006 at 12:04 PM.]

Curt Langston · Posted 11 Sep 2006 11:06 am

Two words: high maintenance.

They sound wonderful.........

But you better know what you are doing, when you attempt to make a copedant change!

richard burton · From: Britain

One word:

Slack

A pedal/lever that raises a string, which is also lowered by a pedal/lever, has to have enough slack in the mechanism to allow a lower.

An All Pull doesn't.

Another word:

Splits

An all pull is capable of splitting a raise, by activating a lower.

A push pull doesn't.

Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

What was the Emmons Company's rational for going from the push-pull to the all-pull? They must have had some good reasons to shift out the dearly-loved and respected niche they had with the p/p.

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

I doubt if there will ever be another guitar with the mystique of the Emmons push pull. I for one am so glad they came along and I just happen to love the push pull. I have all pull guitars that I like very much but to me the push pull is something special.
Jerry

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

They were more expensive to make and I think that a lot of guys end up changing guitars because of the "new and shinies" they go thru every once in a while. We forget how good our guitars sound and feel (no matter what brand) and get attracted to greener fields, although they may not be that green.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I believe the biggest drawback to a p/p is the difficulty in making changes in your copedent. I have worked on and own several p/p's and when you are putting them back together, you'd better decide on the setup you want because it is a bugger to change it afterwards. It really doesn't bother me much, however, as I've pretty much settled into my copedent years ago, but it is kind of nice to try something new once in a while.

Erv

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

99% of people agree that home-baked bread tastes better than store bought.
Yet most people buy store bought bread.

How come ?

-John

Don Walters · From: Saskatchewan Canada

Less work, John

And from what I gather from reading the Forum since its inception, that seems to apply to PP vs AP as well.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Sound isn't the only thing. There's the feel of the pedals, the maintainence, and the difficulty in setting up modern changes.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Add to the above list of reasons the fact that a vintage Push Pull can still be found at a reasonable price.

You can't make new ones for that price, and I'd rather own an original.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

Donny's right...get rid of those old clunkers before you have to pay somebody to haul them away. In fact, I'll take them off your hands for nothing and pay the shipping, as many as you've got. Just put them in a box and send them to me C.O.D. I'll see that they're properly disposed of.

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Guys I just sold my 66 bolt-on because I never played it anymore. I still have what is my favorite Emmons p/p and plan to keep it. I almost sold it but changed my mind. These old guitars have a tone that no other has. It also has the meanest mechanism to work on in the business. I play a Carter for 100% of my gigs and take the p/p out only once in a while. It's mostly the weight factor that keeps it at home for me. As for the splits and the slack, that doesn't bother me at all. I've gotten used to the all-pull guitars and will stick with them from now on. It's just easier to make changes to and work on. That's what determines what I play now. I'm not going to spend the money I used to making changes to my guitars anymore. Before long you can get more in the thing than it's worth. This one I have now will be my last p/p for all of these reasons.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Irv!! You just justified GAS for me!!! I need at least two steels....one PP for tone and one AP (various brands over time) for copedant experiments. Of course, I should have a 12 string AND a 10 string version to cover all the bases...and in single and double neck varieties...and...let's see....a black one and a blue one......hmmmmm

I KNEW I would eventually find the justification I needed!!!!

Thanks, Irv. You're the best!!

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Be be honest with you guys, I really hate the push/pulls!

That's why I own 11 of them.

David Collins · From: Madison, North Carolina, USA

Hey Guys,

A couple of years ago, I seriously investigated the cost and difficulty of manufacturing a new Push Pull guitar based largely on the Emmons Original Design.

I found that the first guitar would cost somewhere between $35,000 and $40,000 due to machine tool set up, etc. After that the parts alone would cost around $3,500 per D-10. Throw in a little for overhead, and a few groceries each week, and the price of a new Push Pull would be more than most are willing to pay.

Joey is 100% correct in saying that vintage PPs can still be had at less than a new one would cost.

Donny is correct also in that the demand would not permit the economics of scale to reduce cost to reasonable levels, based on the market research that I did.

Like Pat, I also offer Push Pull disposal service for anyone who hates them.

------------------
David Collins
www.alpinesoap.com

Barry Blackwood · Posted 12 Sep 2006 4:54 pm

Erv, with 11 PP's, you obviously do something else for a living besides play steel ....

Nick Reed · From: Russellville, KY USA

Weight may be an issue for many of you, but I like my P/P's. I have (1) Emmons Legrande III which is an A/P, and I've tried out everything from Rains, Zums, Carters, Derbys, GFI's and others. They're all great guitars. But for my taste, theres just nothing else like a P/P. It's the only thing I'm satisfied with. Remember, I'm NO big time player so my vote really doesn't count for much. But I do like the sound and the feel I get from a Emmons P/P guitar. Nick

Nick Reed · From: Russellville, KY USA

Erv,
It must be nice!

Duane Reese · Posted 12 Sep 2006 6:47 pm

As much as Donny disparages push/pulls, I'm starting to wonder if he seceretly loves the sound of them and is resentful about the fact that he doesn't know how to tune one!

Heh heh! Just kidding Donny.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Ever wonder why the man who designed or at least helped design them seldom play's one? I think it's lack of tuneable splits.

Larry Robertson · From: Denver, Colorado, USA

Hey Nick Reed-with all those emmons you've got, it's no wonder that antique pistol is pointed straight at your head. I hope it doesn't go off on ya!! Nice picture!

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