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Topic: Why solid state over tubes for PSG amplifiers? |
Jon Snyder
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2021 9:05 pm |
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My first amp was a new 1964 blackface Fender Super Reverb and tubes were always the preferred choice for 6-string guitars and bass. So I was surprised to learn that solid state is preferred for steel.
Bass and electric guitars need lots of headroom as well. Although shredders like them to break up and clean is not in their vocabulary. A Super Reverb is a very clean capable amp that will play as loud as you can take.
I don't think I'm talking about tone or 2x12, 1x15 or 4x10 speakers. I'm just wondering, electronically I guess, what is it about steel guitars that requires more headroom than a bass or 6-string and how is that better accomplished with solid state amps?
Will a steel guitar bring a tube amp to its knees at a gig-level volume? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Nov 2021 10:46 pm
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The difference is in the way our instrument is played. Pedal steel players tend to play with less treble and highs than straight guitar players. This means that the amp must deliver more power, as bassier tones require far more wattage to reproduce than trebly ones. (You will notice on your Super Reverb that as you turn the tone controls down, the volume goes down as well.) Also, pedal steel players use a foot volume control to enhance the sustain of the instrument, and most prefer pure-clean tones. Straight guitarists, on the other hand, tend to use distortion and compression devices to enhance their sustain, so their output power requirements for an amp are far less.
Straight guitar and pedal steel actually have very little in common, a fact that befuddles many straight guitar players. Your Super Reverb is plenty powerful for the majority of lead players, but most pedal steel players would find it less than adequate. Small solid state amps can easily produce very high power levels. With tube amps, extremely high power comes at the price of bulk and extreme weight, and those are qualities most players would rather do without. Bass players also prefer high power amps, so solid state amps have become preferable for them, too. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2021 11:01 pm
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This topic has been tossed around forever and I suppose it will continue.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=150601&sid=5517b2b692a66287db0bcdbb329df295
For me personally, the issues are maintenance, weight (per watt of power), and cost. My Boss Katana amp is lightweight, affordable, and requires almost no maintenance. I realize clean headroom is possible on many great sounding tube amps. If that was the only consideration, I’d still be playing my 85-pound Silverface Twin or 75-pound Mesa Boogie Mk IIC. I don’t record in top studios or do 200 shows a year in front of thousands of people, so my needs aren’t the same as for players that do. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 3:03 am
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As Donnie stated. The other issue is TUBE SAG, guitar players love it, Steel players hate it ! When we push the output stage of a TUBE amp, the power supply kinda lags behind and doesn't deliver the EXACT same HI DC voltage feeding the output stage. The Output Tubes react with a kind of "driven" sound which Guitar players love. Steel players DON'T love it ! The Super Reverb is one fine amp, but its not a contender in the Steel Guitar world like perhaps a TWIN REVERB is. 4x6L6 output stage vs a 2x6L6 output stage. While the Twin Reverb does indeed experience TUBE SAG, its not quite as noticeable as its 2x6L6 cousins. The design of the Twin Reverb circuit is much more forgiving at moderate volume levels. Its not twice as loud as a Super Reverb, it offers a bit more CLEAN response when pushed. Thats why Steel players either USED them or still use them.
But they both weigh in the 60 to 70 lbs neighborhood , and thats why many of us stopped using them !
So now we live in the "which SS amp is best" world and which speaker should I use.
Like the song says- "Two steps forward and one step back" ! Which lightweight SS amp should I get to sound like my 70 lb Twin ?
And I'll say this publicly, The Katana is NOT the answer. I have one, its a fine LO COST , small room, basically disposable amp , but that's where it ends.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Karl Paulsen
From:
Chicago
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 6:01 am
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I'd add that it isn't all tubes or all steel players leaning away from Tubes.....
Allot of lap steel players love their tube amps.
Allot of pedal steel players on genres other than country or Jazz like the tube breakup sound on steel. The steel players most likely to be heard on alt rock radio (Robert Randolph, and Ed Williams) both rock all tube high watt Mesa Boogies so they can get dirty and clean when they want.
Even on pedal steel, it's more the tube power amp section that allot folks lean away from. The warmth and sweetness of tubes, especially in the preamp is still desired by many. Note the high praise of the Hybrid (tube pre with class D power) Milkman Half and Half, the devotion of so many to the Sarno Black Box and the various other off board tube preamps folks use. Heck so much of the praise that Quilter solid state amps get somewhere contains some reference to sounding like a tube amp.
All that said, in general, it is true that these days for most Pedal Steel players (myself included) being able to get all the clean headroom I could want in a lightweight package is more than enough reason to drive me into a Solid state or Hybrid Amp.
_________________
Nickel and Steel. Sad Songs and Steel Guitar.
https://www.facebook.com/NickelandSteel
Chicago Valley Railroad. Trainspotting and Bargain Hunting...
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/
Last edited by Karl Paulsen on 24 Nov 2021 6:09 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Karl Paulsen
From:
Chicago
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 8:18 am Re: Why solid state over tubes for PSG amplifiers?
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| Jon Snyder wrote: |
Will a steel guitar bring a tube amp to its knees at a gig-level volume? |
Also a statement worth clarifying. Are we talking about just hearing yourself on stage or un-miced filling a venue. As Dave says, it's probably loud enough for most gigs. If you're already loving the amp and are used to the weight, no reason not to play it with your steel until you want something different.
If your gig is big enough that you need more volume, mic and PA is likely usually option. Micing the amp isn't always ideal, but what's the Ven diagram overlap for gigs where you need massive amounts of volume, but also aren't allowed to mic your amp?
_________________
Nickel and Steel. Sad Songs and Steel Guitar.
https://www.facebook.com/NickelandSteel
Chicago Valley Railroad. Trainspotting and Bargain Hunting...
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/ |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 8:38 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
| And I'll say this publicly, The Katana is NOT the answer. I have one, its a fine LO COST , small room, basically disposable amp , but that's where it ends. |
When it comes time to “dispose†of your Katana, Tony, I’ll take it. 😎 |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 10:10 am
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No one anywhere could ever convince me there is a better sounding amp for pedal steel than a Fender tube amp, with the proper speakers.. Wattage doesn't matter much after 40 watts it really all depends on how much headroom you need. I always preferred the Fender amps with a tube rectifier.. To me they have a warmer, more musical, more complex tone that I can't explain, but know when I hear.. Nothing I have ever played through sounded better than the Super Reverbs I have had.. They are loud enough for most gigs too,, if you REALLY need more clean volume than a well set up SR has, you ought to reconsider how loud the band is playing.. If more headroom is required, NOTHING has ever sounded any better than the original 1972 Vibrosonic with a JBL D/F 130, or a Twin Reverb with JBL's.
Yes there are newer more high tech, more expensive tube amps, solid state as well, but do they really sound "better"?.. Purely subjective.
Remember most of the great steel tones we "grew up on" back in the 60's and early 70's from the great players were produced with plain old Fender tube amps..
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 10:38 am
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I've always preferred the tone and feel of a 12ax7-based tube preamp with clean 6L6 output tubes, but weight is a factor as I get up in years. Digital power amps are lightweight, powerful, and they sound just as good as 6L6s to my ears. That's why I currently play a Milkman Half & Half - the best of both worlds.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 12:16 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
When it comes time to “dispose†of your Katana, Tony, I’ll take it. 😎 |
LOL Fred  Disposable as in "it costs more to repair it than its worth"
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 12:48 pm
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Bob Carlucci,
I'm with you!
Erv |
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John LeMaster
From:
North Florida
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 2:06 pm Tube vs solid state
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
...And let me state another point - a '64 Super Reverb would cut 80-90% of the pedal steel gigs I play. Not all gigs need mondo volume/headroom. I sometimes use a '57 4-10" tweed Bassman, similar configuration but different sound... |
After many years of using only solid state amps, I recently bought a Fender 68 Custom Pro Reverb amp (40 watts, one 12" neo speaker, 35 pounds). I have played it on a few gigs, and I think it is GREAT. I am spoiled for the tube sound, now. At "6" and above on the Volume knob it will begin to break up, but I find there is sufficient volume at 5 and below, for the venues I am playing. (Plus, I carry a microphone, in case we need to run through the PA. But, haven't had to, so far.)
Of course, I don't play in super loud bands any more, as I did in my misguided youth. 
_________________
Magnum D10, Emmons D10 push-pull |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 2:22 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| I've always preferred the tone and feel of a 12ax7-based tube preamp with clean 6L6 output tubes, but weight is a factor as I get up in years. Digital power amps are lightweight, powerful, and they sound just as good as 6L6s to my ears. That's why I currently play a Milkman Half & Half - the best of both worlds. |
I like this arrangement too, or the octal equivalent of 6SL7 in the preamp. I'm a die hard tube guy, but digital power amps really do a great job, plus they're small, light and don't get super hot.
The Music Man and Standel hybrid amps went the other way and used a solid state preamp and tube power stage. The Standels used germanium transistors in the preamp which sound very tube like at their best. I think Music Man used FETS, which also behave a lot more like tubes than regular bipolar transistors.
These days, I'm using a hybrid Standel amp with a Fox reverb in front of it. Sounds good.
Dave |
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John Larson
From:
Pennsyltucky, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2021 5:22 pm
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Headroom, headroom, headroom.
That is how long an amp stays clean before breaking up.
Steel is generally played with a very clean tone especially in a modern context. Solid state amps have far more headroom than similar wattage tube amps.
Unlike our six string bretheren we PSG players usually aren't chasing that edge of breakup asymmetrical clipping that tube amps excel at producing. Lap steel is another animal, Lindley and his "Running on Empty" Dumble tone comes to mind.
Solid state doesn't get accused of "sterility" for no reason solid state amp cleans are clean. See the proliferation of the Roland Jazz Chorus family in everything from post-punk to heavy metal prized for its crystalline clean tones.
If you are chasing the modern "prime country" steel tones solid state is it. If you want more grit or bite in the tone tube is it.
_________________
Rejoice in the Lord, O ye righteous; praise is meet for the upright. Give praise to the Lord with the harp, chant unto Him with the ten-stringed psaltery. Sing unto Him a new song, chant well unto Him with jubilation. For the word of the Lord is true, and all His works are in faithfulness. The Lord loveth mercy and judgement; the earth is full of the mercy of the Lord.
- Psalm 33:1-5 |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 26 Nov 2021 8:58 am Re: Why solid state over tubes for PSG amplifiers?
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| Jon Snyder wrote: |
My first amp was a new 1964 blackface Fender Super Reverb and tubes were always the preferred choice for 6-string guitars and bass. So I was surprised to learn that solid state is preferred for steel.
Bass and electric guitars need lots of headroom as well. Although shredders like them to break up and clean is not in their vocabulary. A Super Reverb is a very clean capable amp that will play as loud as you can take.
I don't think I'm talking about tone or 2x12, 1x15 or 4x10 speakers. I'm just wondering, electronically I guess, what is it about steel guitars that requires more headroom than a bass or 6-string and how is that better accomplished with solid state amps?
Will a steel guitar bring a tube amp to its knees at a gig-level volume? |
There is no preference for solid state amps in the pedalsteel world anymore. That is another example of a common knowledge that hasn’t been the case since the late 80’s /early 90’s. Some guys use them and some guys don’t depending on all sorts of things. Among working players I bump into around Texas it is a pretty even split. Keep in mind that the reason you see amps on stage is because its the one currently working or something like that.
_________________
Bob
Last edited by Bob Hoffnar on 6 Mar 2022 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steve Mueller
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2021 10:26 am
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Another factor with tube amps is the tubes you use make can a huge difference in the sound, more or less gain, tone quality, cleaner or not, etc. There are newly made tubes vs NOS as well as which actual model preamp or power tubes you're using. For example, the #1 position preamp tube really matters(12AX7 vs 12AT7 vs 12AY7). As you reduce the gain, the amp cleans up(with some accompanying reduction in volume). With my 30 lb pedal steel mini, I've never been on a gig where I needed more volume as long as I'm miked through a good sound system. If I substitute a 12AY7 for the stock 12AX7, I can play a gig with the volume on 8, it's quiet, and get that luscious tube sound with lots of sustain. Not many solid state amps with speaker under 30 lbs. anyway if weight is your main concern. You do need to change tubes from time to time. I carry a Milkman The Amp 100 with me(5lbs) in case of emergency but I've never needed to use it. Bottom line is: The best players can sound good on any amp, but I'm most comfortable with tubes.
_________________
2016 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2015 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2023 Williams S12 4 x 5, Milkman Amps, 1974 Gibson Byrdland |
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George Redmon
From:
Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
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Posted 27 Nov 2021 10:41 am
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I agree, you'll never find a sweeter sounding steel guitar amplifier then a well built tube amplifier. I prefer the 12AX7, 6L6 tube combination myself, over anything else.
The newest entry into my tube amplifier collection, is Brad Sarno's Revelation "Octo" Preamplifier, powered by a Fryette Tube Power Amplifier. The Revelation is Octo Tube Powered, and the Fryette is 6L6 & 12AX7 powered. This setup is simply magic.
Single Channel Tube Amps Rule |
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Charley Paul
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2021 7:01 pm
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I mostly play psg in my recording studio, as a means of enhancing whatever song calls for it. I have only been playing for 3 years, but have devoted a ton of time to becoming a decent utility player. I haven't done more than a dozen gigs as the psg player, mostly because I'm surrounded by some incredible local players. Up until the pandemic started, I usually gigged as a 6 string player 2-3 nights per week.
At a gig, I'm most likely to bring my Quilter, or even a small amp like a Deluxe. In my case it's usually not a very big room, or else there is sound reinforcement to do the heavy lifting. A big amp just isn't necessary, and will get you more dirty looks than anything else.
In the studio, however, nothing sounds quite as glorious as a psg, pot pedal, and a well mic'd 4x6L6 Fender amp. It's just a gorgeous, inspiring sound - and is simply irreplaceable on record. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2021 8:08 pm
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I'm pretty sure that steel players would heavily favor tube amps if they were as lightweight, cheap, and maintenance-free as solid state amps.
But they're not. So people start making compromises to get those things. This is helped along by the fact that there are some solid state amps that sound just great, at least for use with steel (if not for 6-string guitar).
I put a Sarno Black Box (12AX7 tube-based preamp) in front of a Nashville 112 and get the best of both worlds. Lightweight, cheap, trouble-free rig that's tube-y and it works great, especially for live shows. Larger venues mic the amps anyway, so I don't need a rig with more volume that that.
Still, a Fender or one of the all-tube Milkman amps or that Sarno Revelation rig married to a tube power section that George Redmon posted above are about as sweet-sounding as it gets. |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2021 9:03 am Re: Tube vs solid state
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| John LeMaster wrote: |
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
...And let me state another point - a '64 Super Reverb would cut 80-90% of the pedal steel gigs I play. Not all gigs need mondo volume/headroom. I sometimes use a '57 4-10" tweed Bassman, similar configuration but different sound... |
After many years of using only solid state amps, I recently bought a Fender 68 Custom Pro Reverb amp (40 watts, one 12" neo speaker, 35 pounds). I have played it on a few gigs, and I think it is GREAT. I am spoiled for the tube sound, now. At "6" and above on the Volume knob it will begin to break up, but I find there is sufficient volume at 5 and below, for the venues I am playing. (Plus, I carry a microphone, in case we need to run through the PA. But, haven't had to, so far.)
Of course, I don't play in super loud bands any more, as I did in my misguided youth. |
I like my 68 Custom Pro Reverb a lot too. I think it would really catch fire with steel players if only it had more clean headroom. 40 watts, all tube, classic Fender tone and only 35 lbs - it's very nearly the perfect amp! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 30 Nov 2021 10:19 am Re: Why solid state over tubes for PSG amplifiers?
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
There is no preference for solid state amps in the pedalsteel world anymore. That is another example of a common knowledge that hasn’t been the case since the late 80’s/early 90’s. Some guys use them and some guys don’t depending on all sorts of things. Among working players I bump into around Texas it is a pretty even split. Keep in mind that the reason you see amps on stage is because it’s the one currently working or something like that. |
That's not the case in my area, where most all of the players I know are using solid state amps. The few who do use tube amps are those who double on straight guitar and prefer not to schlep two amps around. I used a B/F Twin Reverb for almost 20 years, and a Super-Twin Reverb for another 10 years, but I can't remember the last time I saw either one of those on a local stage, let alone being used by a steelplayer. There are a few new boutique amp makers that have come along in the past couple of decades that make amps especially for pedal steel, but I see those amps (in the $2k or more range) as priced out of the range of most players who aren't doing this stuff for a living.
Also, because I consider myself sort of a pragmatist, I see the minor sonic advantages of top-level equipment (guitars, amps, bars, volume pedals, and cables) as nice... but "more than likely" to be lost in the clatter of the average club-band, live-playing scenario, and therefore of dubious necessity. I really don't know anyone anymore that can listen to a recording or live band and tell me what's being used just by listening to the sound. Top level players can and do worry about this stuff, but the vast majority of us will see more improvement in their playing and sound by practicing more, as opposed to just spending more. (My2cents, anyway.)
Buddy Emmons put it rather bluntly:
| Quote: |
| Over the years I've had hundreds of players sit down at The Blade and play through my amp with my tone settings and they ended up sounding like they did on their own guitars. |
Go figure. |
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Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2021 8:13 am
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As usual, good points by Donny.
I do wonder, who is buying the bulk of the +$2000. Boutique steel amps ? I’m guessing that in addition to some full time pros, pickers with day gigs make up a part of that market.
The same question applies to a lot of our expensive gear. I suspect part timers account for a significant percentage. Hacks like me with a gear addiction. |
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Peter Siegel
From:
Belmont, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2021 4:54 pm
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Per the Emmons quote above, I've always believed that tone was mostly in the hands.
You can play a Strat through a Marshall stack - but good luck sounding like Jimi Hendrix.
So much is attack, picks, bar. Some folks sound better though a tube amp, some through a solid state rig. I could never get a tone I was happy with from a Fender, but I loved my Session 400. Still getting used to my Steelaire... |
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Karl Paulsen
From:
Chicago
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Posted 2 Dec 2021 9:05 pm
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| Steve Spitz wrote: |
As usual, good points by Donny.
I do wonder, who is buying the bulk of the +$2000. Boutique steel amps ? I’m guessing that in addition to some full time pros, pickers with day gigs make up a part of that market.
The same question applies to a lot of our expensive gear. I suspect part timers account for a significant percentage. Hacks like me with a gear addiction. |
I think in all nearly areas of music the majority of the top instruments and amps are purchased by non professionals. Any music shop employee will tell you it's not professionals buying the majority of the best guitars off their walls. It's guys with good paying jobs who can afford to collect that great gear.
_________________
Nickel and Steel. Sad Songs and Steel Guitar.
https://www.facebook.com/NickelandSteel
Chicago Valley Railroad. Trainspotting and Bargain Hunting...
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/ |
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