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Topic: Modes or Licks??? |
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 1:55 am |
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Modes or licks learning style
I raise this question as music is a language and I am now starting to feel torn.
Some players learn modes then study licks while others learn licks solely
Both results are equally effective forms and in the long run the player who knows modes can communicate with/without their instrument. Whereas the innovator who primarily knows licks bends rules as they have or know no limitations. In music this sound becomes their trademark and style.
As a child when you learn to speak you learn words - Chords
Phrases - Licks
Then a few years later you get the rules of language down.
Jernigan said "know your modes" - literally
Emmons - learnt through licks
Love both players Jernigan's technique and skill
Emmons licks, lines and phrases
So how would you approach learning music???
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 4:07 am
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| It's not an either/or choice...one can do both, and learn chords, learn licks, learn theory, learn tunes all at the same time. |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 5:25 am
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iWm_dxEszu0
Learn The Modes!" is Horrible Advice - This is A Better Skill
For me, the best thing to focus on is chord tones.
1. Learn a lot of songs.
2. learn the chord tones and be able to improvise using only chord tones for those many songs you are learning.
3. focusing on modes or scales will not teach you how to suggest the changes in your playing leading to boredom for you and the audience. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 7:38 am
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It might be a little misleading to imply that Buddy Emmons didn’t know modes and scales and chord tones.
I like the “child learning to speak†analogy. Learning licks and songs gets you in the game in a natural way. Learning modes and chord tones later on gets you to the Super Bowl.
There are, of course, examples of great players who sound like they have reached the pinnacle of musical understanding when they play, but are unable to communicate verbally what they play very well at all. They are the real mystery. My belief is that they just have an incredible ear for music, an innate sense for technique, and a very thorough physical understanding of their instrument. Obviously there is nothing wrong with that approach either, and maybe everyone has to learn these things to some degree along the way anyway. I just have doubts about whether or not it can be taught. |
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Brian Evans
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 8:25 am
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"Modes" is just another way to say major scale in a key, and how chords in a key relate back to the major scale. Typical chord sequence - II/V/I. You have a chord that uses the major scale from the I chord, but starts on the second note. Then a chord that's based on the same major scale but starts on the fifth note. You can play things that emphasize those scale tones and the arpeggios that make up the chords. Or you can play licks that you learned that do the exact same thing. Somebody some time ago played a nice line that emphasized those tones in a good way, and you learned it and called it a lick. It's all basically the same thing, except you memorize different stuff, to get to the same end result.
For me, the very first time I play something I really like, I'm improvising, I'm playing the chord changes, I'm playing modes, if I like it or not (I personally ignore modes, I tend to like calling them "chord tones"). The second time I play that same line, I liked it so I remembered it, I'm playing a lick.
My personal beef with modes is the stupid names. Who can remember all those names?  |
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Mark Mansueto
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 8:37 am
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| I learned and know modes well. Do I think it's important? No I don't but I do think it's important to know the major/minor scale up and down the neck. Once you know how the major scale is laid out you'll see how your licks are derived and how the whole thing is connected. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 9:22 am Re: Modes or Licks???
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
So how would you approach learning music??? |
" learning music"???? what does that mean? the analytical realm or the performance realm or the improv realm or what???
before you invest one minute into learning modes or that stuff....take one standard tune that everybody plays...if you like jazz, pick one from the real book, if you like country or hawaiian or whatever just pick a standard.
learn the melody of the song....then learn to actually play the melody in a way that is very effortless and expressive.
then learn the chords to the song. then learn the chords that the masters use...like oscar peterson or bill evans or jim hall etc.
then learn to play the song in any key anyone might call.
then learn an intro, an outro and all the transitions in the song.
then go to youtube and listen to that song played by different musicians and blatantly copy their solos and such.
then learn a couple of hundred songs like this.
you will never be concerned with a "mode" again the rest of your life. you will be too busy playing. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 9:35 am
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| Brian Evans wrote: |
"Modes" is just another way to say major scale in a key, and how chords in a key relate back to the major scale. Typical chord sequence - II/V/I. You have a chord that uses the major scale from the I chord, but starts on the second note. Then a chord that's based on the same major scale but starts on the fifth note. You can play things that emphasize those scale tones and the arpeggios that make up the chords. Or you can play licks that you learned that do the exact same thing. Somebody some time ago played a nice line that emphasized those tones in a good way, and you learned it and called it a lick. It's all basically the same thing, except you memorize different stuff, to get to the same end result.
For me, the very first time I play something I really like, I'm improvising, I'm playing the chord changes, I'm playing modes, if I like it or not (I personally ignore modes, I tend to like calling them "chord tones"). The second time I play that same line, I liked it so I remembered it, I'm playing a lick.
My personal beef with modes is the stupid names. Who can remember all those names? |
Please watch this explanation by Frank Gambale. He really gets to the heart of it here and clears up the misconceptions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkzJ8F_TllI |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 10:03 am
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| Unsurprisingly, Bill Hatcher's comments are right on the mark and the best answer. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 10:22 am
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This is a pretty good response too.
The word “modes†gets tossed around and abused horribly sometimes. An unnecessary musical concept? To each his own. For myself, it helped me learn the guitar better, even though I could already play hundreds of songs and chords in all kinds of keys.
The thing is, after you learn the scales centered around different degrees (modes), you really don’t have to think about them anymore. Just like so many other musical concepts that become a part of your “instinctual†playing style. |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 10:48 am
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There is no “best way to learn†anything, including music and playing lap steel. There are too many variables for such one-dimensional advice to be useful.
It depends on what one wants to learn, and how much one wants to learn, and why one wants to learn at all. It depends on learning style, preferences, and ability.
Some people have trouble improvising, and prefer learning by listening and repeating. Others have trouble using listening without also having notes or tabs to read. Some people can’t read music or struggle processing visual information, but can improvise their way through just about anything. Other people might be blessed with the ability to learn anything and anyway, but are only interested in learning a few specific songs for the band they play in.
For me personally, I believe that there is no such thing as too much knowledge, or too much skill. Even with that belief, there are a lot of things that I want to learn and do that have nothing to do with playing lap steel, so I concentrate my lap steel learning efforts on the things most likely to get me to the point where I can sit in with, or join, any blues band, and hold my own.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 5:07 pm
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I guess in music the end justifies the means. There are guys who know modes who's playing I enjoy, and guys that don't know modes who's playing I also enjoy.
If I like someone's playing and I find out after the fact they know - or don't know - modes, it doesn't matter at all.
Miles Davis used modes, and he made some good music. Conversely I heard that Eric Clapton's theory doesn't go far beyond knowing major & minor pentatonic shapes, and he makes some good music.
If I could go back and give my 15 year old self music lessons, I'd teach myself the following:
1. A bunch of songs & solos in several genres
2. How to transcribe
3. As much theory (yes, including modes) as I could cram into that 15 year old head
4. How to arrange
5. How to record yourself singing the solo you wish you could play, and then go back and learn to play what you just sang/recorded
_________________
https://www.MasterGuitarists.com/ |
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Travis Brown
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2021 10:47 pm
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IMO, the two Bills - McCloskey and Hatcher - nailed it.
People obsess over modes, but IMO their usefulness is blown out of proportion when playing popular music. Sure, every once in a while I can throw in a Phrygian Dominant lick at the gig, but 99.9% of the time I'm playing chord tones (and licks to connect them) or I'm playing the melody.
I think it was jazz saxxer Phil Woods who offered another option (though actually very close to what Bill Hatcher recommended) - learn the melody inside and out, then riff around the melody. As this technique progresses, the melody itself is obfuscated by the riffs until you are simply soloing. |
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Joel Jackson
From:
Detroit
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Posted 23 Nov 2021 6:14 am
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| Bill Hatcher's post should be a sticky on "how to play music". |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 23 Nov 2021 7:21 am
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If you do as Bill Hatcher says, somewhere down the road you’ll be able to forget all the stuff you learned and hear and play the music your own way. Be patient. It’s taken me decades. The only thing I would add to this is to pay close attention to what the other instruments are doing on recordings and live performances. Use your analytic mind to break it down and see how it all relates.
Still, every tool you can use to help YOU understand things is important. We all parse information differently and things that strike a chord with one person may not with the next. Keep your ears, eyes and mind open. |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 23 Nov 2021 9:03 am
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Modes is more than anything else a focus on chord tones 
How would I learn music?
Listen to lots of different music, watching live or listening to recorded music, get inspired by some of it, listen more, duplicate, replicate, copy, steal, figure where/how and maybe why, on whatever instrument I have available.
Learn to play the same thing on two different instruments or two different tunings. (very nice)
Play music together with other people (very nice)
Learn(feel) rhythms and subdivisions (very nice to know)
Diatonic triads (very nice to know)
Beeing able to hear Roots 3rds 5ths 7ths 9ths and so on up to 13th (very nice to know)
Harmonic series, overtones (nice to know)
Just intonation vs Equal temperaments (nice to know)
Written music notation (nice to know)
Roman numerals like iim7 V7 Imaj7 (nice to know)
Beeing able to see/hear/vizualize 2 octaves all the way up to a 13th chord (nice to know)
one octave can be split into 4 minor 3rd intervals(diminished)
the other octave can be split into 3 major 3rd intervals(augmented)
Those 7 building blocks (four minor 3rds and three major 3rds) can be stacked in multiple ways to produce all of the most commonly used modes and then some. (nice to know)
Pen and paper (very nice to have)
Other peoples ideas and practises (nice to know)
Lots of other nice to know things but most important is to have fun and enjoy the music and forget all (except where you are and where you are going) about the theory and other stuffs.
B.Erlandsen |
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Chase Brady
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2021 11:12 am
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| Is anyone familiar with Jon Herrington's Ear IQ method? I bought his video lessons, but I've only gotten through the first few thus far. It's geared to fretted guitar, but the ideas should be applicable to steel as well. Basically his idea is to start with the chord tones, and then use your ear to find the other notes you want/don't want. Of course, you need to train your ear to do this, and that's what the course is about. As I say, I haven't gotten into it enough to say how well it works, but it makes a lot of sense to me. https://truefire.com/ear-iq/reactive-improvisation/c818 |
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