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Topic: D6th with modern E9th changes |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Oct 2021 1:21 pm |
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Johnny Cox's 12 string D13th uses a lever to shift the low strings down for C6th. Fooling around on spreadsheet, I approached it from the other side - raising the whole C6th tuning a full step. Then I inserted a major 7 as string 2, like on E9th. It's missing the middle E and low D from Johnny's D13th.
On 10 strings, the copedent still goes down to low E like a standard guitar thanks to pedal 4.
The RKR raises the 9th and 10th string to emulate E9th.
I thought about the top E9th string raises and the PF pedal, which are popular in modern music. This is reflected in LKR and p1.
There's no "C" pedal. I always raise the root tone a full step on LKV instead.
Technically, the 5th pedal (C6th p6) can be accomplished with LKR+p3, so this idea will even work on a 4 pedal guitar.
It's missing C6th p7. Both of those notes are available on the top 2 strings. I'm not sure how feasible that is for C6th-style western swing, though. To be determined.
I have a guitar lined up to try it, waiting for some parts in the mail. 
Also notice that P3+LKV+RKR makes an actual vintage C6th (Am7). Sort of awkward but if you grew up on that high G non-pedal tuning, it's comforting.
Knee lever positions could be switched around. These are just what I'm used to.
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Sam Conomo
From:
Queensland, Australia
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Posted 28 Oct 2021 9:07 pm Single 10 D13
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Looks good Bob,
Can't wait to hear it.
Sam. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 28 Oct 2021 9:54 pm
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I have a 12 string with 5+5. Not enough for either a true Universal or the Cox D13.. I wonder how IΓ’β¬β’d adapt this approach to mine. Not really sure I want to get into another tuning at this point but it is intriguing.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 29 Oct 2021 7:11 am
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| Very nice. You've got a lot of ground covered with this set up. From an E9/D9 perspective its interesting how you dealt with the chromatic strings potentially conflicting with the added B on string 5, and you're getting a flat7 on string 2 and 5 with RKR. The bottom of that lever is very cool too, in that it restores some classic dom9 tuning sounds but also makes that secondary C6 tuning w/ the up lever and P3. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Oct 2021 8:47 am
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Maybe the p1 should actually be in the p3 position, as people often put the PF pedal on the inside, not on "pedal 0". Also, it would make a very nice Em7 with p3+p4+LKR. Update:
Last edited by b0b on 29 Oct 2021 9:59 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Fred
From:
Amesbury, MA
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Posted 29 Oct 2021 9:42 am
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| K Maul wrote: |
| I have a 12 string with 5+5. Not enough for either a true Universal or the Cox D13.. I wonder how IΓ’β¬β’d adapt this approach to mine. Not really sure I want to get into another tuning at this point but it is intriguing. |
Zane Beck's 12 string copedent is 4+5 and covers a lot of E9 plus B6 with pedals 5 and 6. Use your fifth pedal for a P8 and you can cover a lot of ground.
Fred |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Oct 2021 10:40 am
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| K Maul wrote: |
| I have a 12 string with 5+5. Not enough for either a true Universal or the Cox D13.. I wonder how IΓ’β¬β’d adapt this approach to mine. Not really sure I want to get into another tuning at this point but it is intriguing. |
To get this on a 12 string, add the middle E (like Johnny's D13th) and the low D. P4 would then raise string 12 D to E and string 11 G to G#, just like p5 on C6th. You could lower string 12 D to B on LKL to get the low end of that C6th p8 effect.
The only disadvantage to the D13th approach (with the middle E) is that it's not as strummable as a true C6th. I often rake chords softly with my pinky while another player is soloing. That's why I prefer the D6th tuning instead of D9th or D13th.
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 29 Oct 2021 11:20 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| K Maul wrote: |
| I have a 12 string with 5+5. I wonder how IΓ’β¬β’d adapt this approach to mine. . |
I often rake chords softly with my pinky while another player is soloing. That's why I prefer the D6th tuning instead of D9th or D13th. |
Thanks for the advice!
I might prefer the D6 as well for the same reason, but I have enough trouble figuring out what to do with tunings I already use.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Bas Kapitein
From:
Holland
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Posted 29 Oct 2021 1:26 pm
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My take on a D6th with some E9th elements started with B0bs other published proposals, in his blog and here on the forum. I have a S-12 Sierra that started out as a U-12 but I removed 4 pedals. Medical reasons made it hard for me to use them. I first tried an E note on string 8 but for reasons B0b explained above later went for the solution BE put on his last C6th. (Never underestimate the master) I found it very nice to pull in an E if I want it. It felt better to put both E pulls on RkL if you use it as the E9th C pedal my left foot is playing the A & B pedals and RkL is on the left knee to add a C pedal effect, not only on string 4 but also on string 8. RkL and LkR together are C6th pedal 7. You can see the possibilities. K Maul has five pedals so he could either adopt C6th pedal 8 or B0bs suggestion for an extra pedal that lowers the A to G on string 6.
Last edited by Bas Kapitein on 6 Dec 2021 3:15 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Oct 2021 1:44 pm
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The double D idea is pretty cool, Bas. Sort of like the Sacred Steel double E.
Like you, I've been pulling the low G up to A on my first pedal, but it's awkward. The "pedals down" (A+B) position expects a G bass note. That's part of the reason that I moved it to RKR in this new chart.
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Bas Kapitein
From:
Holland
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Posted 29 Oct 2021 2:03 pm
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| OK point taken. but it leaves me with three choices move the A on string 11 to LkL, to Rkl or leave it out. |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 29 Oct 2021 3:07 pm
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Of all the standard C6 changes not on Maurice AndersonΓ’β¬β’s last copedent, standard P7 is the one I miss the least. The voicings from this are available in other ways, and all thatΓ’β¬β’s really lost is the sound of the notes raising, which I personally donΓ’β¬β’t care about.
If I were ever going to change tunings (never going to happen), JohnnyΓ’β¬β’s is the one IΓ’β¬β’d change to. Yours is also a very nice option, in my view.
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Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Oct 2021 11:59 am
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| K Maul wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
| K Maul wrote: |
| I have a 12 string with 5+5. I wonder how IΓ’β¬β’d adapt this approach to mine. . |
I often rake chords softly with my pinky while another player is soloing. That's why I prefer the D6th tuning instead of D9th or D13th. |
Thanks for the advice!
I might prefer the D6 as well for the same reason, but I have enough trouble figuring out what to do with tunings I already use. |
On your S-12, you could simply add 2 low strings tuned to D and B. That would preserve the D6th string order for strumming, and get rid of the 10th string hysteresis problem that plagues C6th players when they lower their 10th string by 3 half-steps on pedal 8. There would be no need to lower the low D - just use the 12th string instead.
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 30 Oct 2021 2:12 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| K Maul wrote: |
| I have a 12 string with 5+5. I wonder how IΓ’β¬β’d adapt this approach to mine. . |
On your S-12, you could simply add 2 low strings tuned to D and B. That would preserve the D6th string order for strumming, and get rid of the 10th string hysteresis problem that plagues C6th players when they lower their 10th string by 3 half-steps on pedal 8. There would be no need to lower the low D - just use the 12th string instead. |
I like that idea! Thanks. Chalker did something like that by having a low A on his C6, right?
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Oct 2021 3:46 pm
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Right - Curly Chalker did that on his C6th. His bottom 2 strings were very unusual (D and A). No low C. We call it C6th, but his tuning was more like Dm11 if you consider the low strings. Low to high:
A D F A C E G A C E
We could also call our standard C6th an Fmaj9, because of the 9th string. But nobody does.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Nov 2021 9:54 pm
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Here's a similar copedent for people with more standard E9th knee levers than mine. I know that a lot of E9th players raise and lower their Es on the left knee, and have a vertical that lowers their B string half a step.
Imagine that you removed the 7th string from E9th, and instead put a C# string between the E and the B. That would make it like an E6th on the middle strings. Then drop the whole tuning down a step to D.
Now imagine that you removed the lowest string from C6th, and instead inserted a B between the 1st and second string. (Bobby Black does this, by the way.) Then raise that whole tuning up to D. That's where the bottom 2 strings in this chart come from.
This D6th chromatic copedent gives you almost all of the changes of a standard double neck in a single neck, ten string instrument with only 4 pedals and 5 knee levers. It's not as full-featured as Johnny Cox's 12-string D13th, but it's close.
To match my other guitar, I would swap RKL with LKR and also swap LKV with P3. Retraining muscle memory is hard. I made this chart to more closely match what many E9th players are used to. That might make it easier to understand. And actually, if you're already an S-10 player with little C6th experience, this pedal and lever is better than what I use.
It seems to me that we should be able to play just about anything on an S-10. The lack of low notes on the E9th has always bugged me. It's hard to play "country style" on the C6th. The universal E9/B6 route is more complicated than using the same root system for all kinds of music, and it's harder to tune. These are the some of the reasons that I play D6th.
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Last edited by b0b on 6 Dec 2021 9:13 am; edited 3 times in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Dec 2021 8:41 pm
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The parts for the 5th pedal will arrive this week. To maintain my sanity going back and forth with my other guitar, most of the changes will be what I'm used to playing on my D6th. The major differences are adding the 2nd string (a major 7th, like on E9th), and the 10th string lower to low E. Here it is:
It's still missing a Bb note in the high octave. That's an Emmons C6th lever (A>Ab) that I couldn't fit in. If I swapped the first 2 pedals Day-style it would be there as a split as p2+p3, but I'm too old to make that change. 
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 6 Dec 2021 1:11 am
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I'm impressed by the whole concept of the D uni as a median voicing between C and E. Buddy Emmons would have approved, as he explained the C tuning as based on E down a major third.
Having spent 8 years getting to grips (literally) with the B6/E9 setup I'm too old to change (or rather I prefer to invest my time in improving what I have already), and besides it does have a good internal logic of its own. If I'd discovered D6 earlier I'd certainly have given it a go, but having relearnt my E9 grips once I'm going to stick!
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2021 6:48 am
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b0b, your D6 reminds me a lot of Red Rhodes. Here is his tuning transposed down a half step to D6. These pedals 5,6,7 are not present on some of his setups, and appear to be experiments that he tried when he got a guitar with more pedals.
| Tab: |
LKL LKR 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 RKL RKR
E
A
F# +G +G
D ++E ++E +D# -C#
B +C ++C# +C +C
A -G# ++B +A#
F# +G -F
D +D# ++E -C#
C -B ++D
A -G# ++B --G
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Red's string 2 is high A, easily changed to C# if you want the common "chromatic" strings 1 & 2.
Red's P6 here is our F lever, something Red did not usually have.
His P4 is the usual P7 on C6 tuning, and on the 2 low strings, it is the reverse of b0b's RKR. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2021 9:11 am
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It's similar, Earnest, but it doesn't solve what I see as the fundamental problem with most S-10s - they don't go low enough. Having a low E note seems essential to me, especially when playing in a small group. That's why a lot of players went to S-12 Extended E9th, as I did for many years. The question becomes, what do we actually need and use on the bandstand? Would you give up your low E if you had to play an S-10?
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2021 2:18 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| what do we actually need and use on the bandstand? Would you give up your low E if you had to play an S-10? |
Yes |
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Bas Kapitein
From:
Holland
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Posted 6 Dec 2021 3:30 pm
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B0b, the high C on P4 is a nice idea.
The real solution to your range problem is a S-11 or S-12. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2021 3:46 pm
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| Bas Kapitein wrote: |
| B0b, the high C on P4 is a nice idea. |
I think it's a good idea. It comes from learning B+C licks on E9th. Seems I always had to lower the second string a half step.
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2021 11:28 am tuning explanation chart
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This might help some people understand it.
In the open tuning, 7 of the strings are tuned like E9th (one step lower), and 9 of them are tuned like C6th (one step higher).
E9th and C6th pedal changes are then added as desired.
[center:b92c152e5e] [/center:b92c152e5e]
It's missing strings 7, 9, and 10 from the E9th, but all of those notes are available from pedals and knee levers.
It's missing string 10 from the C6th, so it doesn't go quite as low.
But it does capture the essence of both tunings, and it has two nice additional features not available in the standard tunings: an extra scale note on the high strings, and strummable major, minor, and 7th chords on the low strings.
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