MSA Classic Knee Lever Problems

Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

I have a 74 MSA Classic with some knee lever issues.

The person(s) that owned the guitar before me must have been twice my size. The distance, static, between the left levers is more than 9 inches. I believe that in moving the knees farther apart resulted in damage to the LKR mechanics and was kludged together.

The right knees are about 7 inches apart. If a play the RKR, the throw is so long that I fall off the volume pedal. If I want a RKR and any pedal, I pert near fall off my stool.

I realize this is very vague. But I'm hoping to start a convo as to how to remedy these knee lever issues. I'm fairly new to steel, but it is something that I wish I had picked up 50 years ago. And help would be appreciated, and any questions you might have I will be more than happy to answer.

Thanks in advance.
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Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Does the MSA classic have adjustable knee levers? Many steels have a small screw that can be used to change the angle that the knee levers hang so you can, say, move them closer to your knee.

I've you're not sure, flip the guitar over in the case and take a close look at the knee lever and the mounting and check for any small (very small) screws that hit the side of the lever. That's' what you'll turn to adjust the angle-of-the-dangle.

Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

The knee lever angle is adjustable, and I have made the adjustments that you suggest, but it doesn't solve the basic problem(s). The issue is that the levers are WAY far apart. I know that you can move the levers left or right, but I'm not comfortable doing that at this point. A question would be: is it easier to move a left moving lever to the right, or moving the right moving lever to the left.

Also, the LKR linkage is way screwed up. I would have to send a picture as I really don't know how to explain it, but I know it's very wrong.

Thanks for the reply. I would love to get Bud (a nickname) working properly. I would buy new linkage, but MSA and PSG does not carry the parts anymore.
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Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Yes I have moved or adjusted distance on a handful of MSA 70's models; and yes very hard for me to tell you what to do without seeing; then showing you. Is it a Single-10 Classic or Double-10?? There is quite a balancing rod linkage thing that is highly difficult to explain how it works without seeing. There is a few variations on every MSA....so if you can post a shot underneath...like maybe Left knee half and right knee half and endplate where you can see where the nylon tuners are. Or send it down here to Texas and I'll make it perfect for you; or find someone up closer to north east that might know MSA.
Ricky
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

It really sounds like your seating position may be wrong. The spacings you gave (7 inches between the right levers, and 9 inches between the lefts) don't sound that far off from typical. Also, with your right knee in a "neutral" position, you should be able to move your knee at least 4 inches in either direction without it having any effect on your foot position on the volume pedal.

If I may ask, how much pedal steel playing experience do you have?

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

In my experience, the LKL cross shaft is between the 2nd and 3rd pedal and the LKR is 6" away- +/- 1/2". The MSA right moving levers utilize a reversing mechanism that has the rear rail pre-drilled for the RKR and LKR levers to attach to as well as the reversing swivel which then attaches to the cross shaft that can be located basically anywhere down the line toward the keyhead and attaches via a 1/8" pushrod. Based on the fact that the position of the LKL and both of the R moving levers is fixed the RKL should be basically 6" (+/-) inside that. Anything else is due to some change that someone did after market such as adding an 0 pedal, etc. You can tilt the levers to accommodate for individual preferences but the 6" rule hanging straight down is a rule of thumb- certainly 9" is about 3" too far apart.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

You can adjust the angle of those levers. Jim is correct about 6 inches apart is close to normal.. Maybe 7 for some guys. The old MSA guitars had a little more travel in the changer than a lot of modern guitars, but you should certainly not be falling off the volume pedal playing it, so your guitar needs some set up. Someone at some point was likely under that guitar, and moved the positioning of the levers or one of the cross shafts or then were knocked hard enough to spin the lever bracket on the cross shaft.

Its pretty easy to figure out if you go under the guitar, work the knee levers in question, see where everything is positioned and look where all the allen fasteners are. Taking a few good clear pictures before touching anything would help.
Not sure if you mind driving, but I would be happy to set up the levers to fit you correctly, no charge,if you can make the drive from NH to NY state some day. It only takes an hour or so, depending on how many you want moved. Without seeing your guitar in person, its hard to say whats going on.. Someone may have altered the angle on the levers, and they just need to be angled properly, and thats all of a 5 minute job on a bad day. OR, they may have moved a cross shaft for whatever reason. Any chance of posting a few pictures of how those levers hang?... On the MSA Classic guitars because of the round shafts on the old MSA undercarriage, a LOT of knee levers get knocked out of position by players that simply push too hard against the stops at some point causing the levers to rotate a little on the shaft, and that can cause the issue you are dealing with. Small adjustments make big changes on these guitars.
Believe me its an easy fix with a few sharp allen wrenches and a good eye, but its not always something a beginner is capable of. Posting some pics of you levers and how they relate to each other would be a good first step. My levers are somewhat angled so that the is a 5 inch space between them at the bottom edge, Thats whats correct for me. Your situation might be similar.. When I played MSA guitars [for many years], I kept the cross shafts in the factory positions, but always angled them to fit me better.
Someone may have moved something on your guitar if those levers are 7 and 9 inches apart,,...bob
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Mike Ritchie · From: Florida, USA

I added a flag and moved it over a bit with nylon spacers, easy fix and has worked great for me to get things a little closer for my liking.

Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate your knowledge and suggestions. I will post pics, (8x10 color glossies, with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was) of the offending lever mechanism, and try and explain what is going on.

Looking at it and trying to figure out the mechanism, I am convinced that someone, with less knowledge than I have has monkeyed around with it and FUBARed it. This is precisely the reason I asked for your advice before attempting to repair it.

Photos coming soon Very Happy

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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I played MSA guitars for several years. When I got the guitar used, The way the knee levers was set up, I had to sit way to the right with my Right leg going perfect 90 degrees straight through the Right knee levers to my foot on volume pedal. This made my left leg going between the left knee levers at an angle and needed more room between them so I would not put pressure on a knee levers and detuning the guitar.
Sitting at the guitar it looked a strange, Right leg going straight under and my left leg at a weird angle. Pedaled them for years that way.

Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

OK. a picture IS worth a thousand words. And I think I see the problem. Please feel free to poke holes in my hypothesis.
1.) The upper connecting rod through parts A, B, & C is not connected to A & B. (It moves up and down within A & B, which is wrong.)
2.) Notice the empty holes on A & B. (Also wrong.)
3.) The 2 Allen locks on the connecting rod are all that is keeping it connected to A. (Most certainly wrong.)

What I think will repair it is:
1.) Remove the upper connecting rod by removing the 2 Allen locks and loosening the Whatsit on C.
2.) Buy 2 "Whatsits" (someone please tell me what the hell that's called! And "unobtanium" is not a good answer.)
3.) Insert the Whatsits into parts A and B.
4.) Reinstall the connecting bar through the both new Whatsits.
5.) Tighten.
6.) Have a beer and listen to George Jones.

I think that this is probably the main issue, which results in the wide widths between the levers. Once this is repaired, It may be possible to adjust the lever angles, as has been suggested so that it's playable.

Thoughts gentlemen and ladies?
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John Palumbo · From: Lansdale, PA.

I'll leave this up to the more experienced but to me doing your presumed fix, if I understand it correctly will result in rotating the cross shaft (you have labeled 'B') in the wrong direction.

In the meantime I could go for that beer & George & Tammy Smile

Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

You bring up an interesting point, John. I need to look at this further.
What I do know as fact is that the knee works as intended. Whether that will be the case afterwards, well, that's TBD.

Now, I'm gonna put on George, and watch the World Series. Cool

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Al Evans · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

Al, thanks. I've looked at this over and over again trying to make sense. Then a little bell in my head rang, and I agree with you. When I move the pedal to the right, B and C move it the opposite direction, turning the cross-shaft CCW as you said. (I checked this in-person on the guitar). Thanks for making me think it out.

Now the question becomes the fix. I know that I will have to get a barrel lock (I found out what the "whatsis is)" for A. C will remain as is. But what about B? As someone else pointed out, if I lock the connecting rod to B then there would be no motion at all. But, I don't think that leaving the connecting rod float is a good idea. Would a barrel lock in B to guide and keep the rod in place, but not tightening it to the rod? Is that a solution?
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Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

It was, still is, a great story, Lee. I actually don't live very far from "the scene of the crime". With Thanksgiving coming up and all, a road trip may be in order Very Happy

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Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

On the other knee cluster, on the right end of the guitar, does the RKR have the same setup and the same spacing of parts? You said those right knees are 2 inches closer together -- can you look and see why that is?

I agree that 9 inches apart is not acceptable. I'm looking at the photo and I can't see how a prior user might have modified it to mount this knee lever further from its mate (i.e, I can't see any abandoned screw hole). Maybe this knee lever wasn't moved -- it was the other one?

Al Evans · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

Al, I just came upon an old thread on the forum (2018) which indicated that the rods on an MSA sometimes run through the bell crank without being attached. That also confirms another reply which suggested that tightening the rod to the B bell crank would render the entire mechanism null and void.

I appreciate all the comments. I have learned a ton of great information. And, hopefully, a fixed guitar so that I can move on to another disaster Shocked

Y'all ROCK!!
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I think the guitar has been tinkered with by someone. I believe the pulls have been changed to another cross rod.

Those 2 allen locks are not right. There should be a brass Barrel Rod Lock through 1 of the bell crank holes. The pull rod could slide up and down in the bell crank and could change pull from engagement to engagement. This is a picture of the LKR. But they were both set up the same. Hope this helps. If not I will drag my D10 out from under the bed for more pictures. bj

Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

I totally agree with you, Bobby. The levers are way too far apart. And, indeed the pull rod does move up and down in the bell crank. That's what really started this thread.
I've ordered the barrel locks. I also ordered a shoulder screw for the lever assembly. As it is now, the lever rocks back and forth (front to back). I tried to tighten it but it's a tight as it gets. I noticed on PSGs description, they say they grind down the end of the shoulder screw so it won't bottom out on the frame, which is what I think is happening.

The parts are on the way. I have a pretty good understanding of what is going on.

AND I REALLY appreciate your great picture. That will be incredibly helpful. Thanks!
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Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

I now know that the pedal mechanism has been "adjusted". Laughing

I removed the backing plate to expose the rod positions relative to the frame. It's a ghoulish mess (in keeping with the holiday.)
1.) The plate was attached with Philips head screws EXCEPT for one slotted screw.
2.) There are various scribblings on both the frame, and the cover plate.

I'm an electronics guy, with little aptitude for mechanical systems, but even I know this ridiculous.

Bobby, again, thank you for the pic. Maybe I can get Bud back into original shape!
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Here is pictures of a 70's MSA D10 knee lever set up and the spacing. This spacing is the same as the S10 I sold. Hope this will be of some help.

I sent you a private message to send picture of S10 By Phone.

Don Downes · From: New Hampshire, USA

You are a saint, Mr. Jones. I was going to ask you, if it wasn't too much trouble, to send me some 30 thousand foot views of the workings. And POOF! there they are. Thanks so much.
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