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Topic: Carter LKV issue |
Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 9 Oct 2021 4:10 pm |
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I'd like to throw this out to the community for thoughts and ideas.
I'm playing my buddy's 98 D10 Carter. When I first started playing it, the Vertical KL flag was hinged so that the tip pointed toward the right rather than left. The lever was mounted on a module with the linkage in what I guess you would call sort of a gear down method with an additional member. This guitar appears to have been built this way.
It's set up to lower the B's a half step on 5 & 10..that's it. Common gauges 17 and 36 [or 38] respectively.
I've seen some Sho-Buds, and a few others like that but all later Carters appear to be hinged in the conventional left pointing fashion.
It was uncomfortable and seemed stiff on activation so I made a few changes and mounted it on a hub direct to a cross shaft and reversed the flag position like the later models. I also planned to use that original leftmost 0 cross shaft position for other changes.
Yet, it's still stiff and just uncomfortable. I use this change on all my guitars and I've never encountered any this stiff.
The pull rods/bellcranks are set to the Carter tuning chart positions, but I have tried all the changer and bellcrank positions without much relief.
I've been servicing mine and other folk's pedal steels for 25 yrs. or so, so I'm familiar with the mechanics. I don't think it should be this stiff just lowering those B's.
Pardon for the lengthy post, but I'm trying to paint an accurate picture of the issue.
My questions for you are, should one method of mounting be easier to activate and/or have a better feel? I don't find much, if any, difference.
Here's some pics of the before and after. The original linkage train is indicated by the blue dots in the first wide shot.
Factory install:
After:
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2021 7:02 pm
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Hey Jerry, Should not be stiff. I have had 3 or 4 Carter's and the vertical was very nice and easy. I would try changing the connecting rod to different holes on the bell crank and just see if it makes any difference. I know you are a teck and have done this all ready I would guess. But where the connecting rod is coming from the lever is too high at the lever connection. The closer to axle the harder the pull but shorter. Just my lesson's learned. And I am not a teck.
But my guess is you need the pull rod lower at the knee lever. J.R. Rose
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2021 7:12 pm
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After looking at your pictures again it looks like you have the connecting rod at the right place. It must have something to do with the single tree that connects the rods. Maybe it needs to be longer with more holes?
I have never seen that single tree. J.R. Rose
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2021 7:21 pm
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Jerry, Chuck Abend out of Kansas City knows a lot about the Carter steels. He his a forum member, he perhaps can give you some insight. He does not pay a of attention to the forum anymore but he should know about your problem. J.R. Rose
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 9 Oct 2021 8:28 pm
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Appreciate your reply J R.
Yeah, I have been through the obvious changer hole/bell crank positions.
The lower photo with the red arrows is how I have it set up right now. Its a simple hub attached directly to the cross shaft where the 2 bell cranks are mounted for the 5 & 10 lower pull rods.
It's just the lever, hub, 1 cshaft and the 2 cranks and no connecting linkage.
I thought this would be better than the original mounting in the top photos [outlined in white] with that convoluted linkage train, but I may be wrong.
I've searched around for other photos, but haven't seen that connection for LKV.
Yes, I'm hip to Chuck Abend's work. The photos of his Carter set ups are sort of what I am using for reference when I added a couple kl's. |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 10 Oct 2021 5:54 am
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Somewhere in my time on the forum, somebody explained to me why their 1998 D10 pro cabinet was very different from mine (2000) somehow, not BCT or hollow/solid cross shafts or "premium" neck, something else, but I can't find the email or remember who it is... maybe ask Al Brisco
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- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2021 9:55 am
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Jerry, One more comment. So you removed the vertical single tree as I called it, added a cross rod with knee lever attached to it, moved bell cranks over so pull rods are inline with changer holes. That is what I would have done. It should work smooth as silk. Something is binding somewhere. J.R.
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 11 Oct 2021 7:23 am
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Thanks everybody for your messages and comments. This looks like the nature of the beast.
I would normally fiddle with the return springs tension, but since Carter doesn't have adjustable springs, can't do that.
I've about decided the only option is to move another lever for clearance, then move the LKV closer to the rear apron. I dunno if I want to add more drill boogers to the cabinet so we'll see. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 11 Oct 2021 8:15 am
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
Thanks everybody for your messages and comments. This looks like the nature of the beast.
I would normally fiddle with the return springs tension, but since Carter doesn't have adjustable springs, can't do that.
I've about decided the only option is to move another lever for clearance, then move the LKV closer to the rear apron. I dunno if I want to add more drill boogers to the cabinet so we'll see. |
Yup. The adjustment you can do to the return springs is to cut a loop off to increase tension, which I did on the half stop finger to get a firmer half stop. Unfortunately they can't be adjusted for less tension. Maybe a different spring could be found, but...
One thing I noticed in your "before" Pic is the lever is oriented in the opposite direction than the verticals in my Carter. Mine go in the direction from the changer to the keyhead. Mine are not stiff. I wonder if the change in direction had anything to do with it. 🤔 Mine are also closer to the back apron, but I don't think that is much of the issue. I tried moving the C6 vertical further from the back apron because the C6 vertical would hit the E9 vertical when engaged. It was really difficult to hit further towards the front of the guitar, so I moved it back to it's original spot by the back apron, and cut a little bit off the C6 vertical.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Oct 2021 9:35 am
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| Quote: |
| The adjustment you can do to the return springs is to cut a loop off to increase tension, which I did on the half stop finger to get a firmer half stop. Unfortunately they can't be adjusted for less tension. |
Non-adjustable return springs can be loosened by stretching them a bit; this was a very common practice in the early days of pedal steel. (The proper way to do it is done without removing the spring.) Using a flat bladed screwdriver, you insert the blade into the coils and twist the screwdriver. The blade can easily open up a permanent gap in the coil about the width of one of the turns. And if you need to do additional stretching, do it in another area on the spring, so as to not cause a very large gap, which will tend to "cock" or arch the spring excessively.
Make the adjustments judiciously and slowly, as there's no way to go back. You can also sometimes find a lighter spring, which is the best if you are unsure of your abilities or you want to revert things back exactly like they were. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 11 Oct 2021 10:17 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The adjustment you can do to the return springs is to cut a loop off to increase tension, which I did on the half stop finger to get a firmer half stop. Unfortunately they can't be adjusted for less tension. |
Non-adjustable return springs can be loosened by stretching them a bit; this was a very common practice in the early days of pedal steel. (The proper way to do it is done without removing the spring.) Using a flat bladed screwdriver, you insert the blade into the coils and twist the screwdriver. The blade can easily open up a permanent gap in the coil about the width of one of the turns. And if you need to do additional stretching, do it in another area on the spring, so as to not cause a very large gap, which will tend to "cock" or arch the spring excessively.
Make the adjustments judiciously and slowly, as there's no way to go back. You can also sometimes find a lighter spring, which is the best if you are unsure of your abilities or you want to revert things back exactly like they were. |
Right Donny. I made sure I ordered a couple of spare springs from AL Brisco before I messed with the spring. I cut 2 loops off at first. That made the half stop so hard it took 3 people pulling and an 18 wheeler pushing on the knee lever to move it past the half stop. Good thing I had spares.
I was wondering if stretching the string would work. I never had the need for weaker spring, so never tried it.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Bob Sykes
From:
North Carolina
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Posted 11 Oct 2021 1:17 pm
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My LKV linkage is different. I don't know if it's "factory" as I got the guitar used.
The LKV lever connects to a single cross-shaft that has all three cranks on the outermost setting. The rods go to the lowest hole on the changer (furthest from the changer axle). Total travel on the tip of the lever is about 1/2". I can't say if it's "stiff" as I don't have much to compare it with and I don't use the lever much (yet).
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Carters Starter, D10 8+7, SD10, Chandler RH-2, Rogue RLS-1
ISO Sustainus Ad Infinitum |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 11 Oct 2021 1:32 pm
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I expect a loaded up guitar would be built and have the levers arranged to suit a buyer. I also know they built "stock" 8+5 guitars for ready sale and display at the conventions too. I don't know if there was a set pattern for that. I would imagine John and Bud would make improvements along the way same as any other builder.
I see most lever assemblies are mounted on what Carter called modules such as the one you reference above. The remote cross shaft/bell cranks/linkage further up the line make it possible to locate the actual lever in it's best usable location.
The 2 levers I built myself for this guitar do not use modules but are mounted directly to the cross shafts so I don't know if that method has any bearing on the efficiency or action of the mechanism.
I don't mean to say it's not playable as is, I get to sit at it a few jams here and there and I'm grateful for my friend's big heart to let me do that.
It just seems stiffer than any of my previous guitars and I was just looking for comments and ideas.
Maybe it's because I'm getting to be an old geezer.😩 |
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