curly chalker play,s out of tune

Willie Sims · From: PADUCAH, KY, USA

Just read JD SAUSER post a bout the C6 tuning. He said that curly Chalker played out of tune on his C6 neck. I'm surprised someone hasn't challenged him on that. Don't we all wish we could play out to tune the way CURLY CHALKER did.

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

â€˜Out of tuneâ€™ is a vague statement, does it mean all of the time, does it mean it happened one time, does it mean one note? Slip of the bar, bad night, poor lighting, rest of the band out? Very Happy

Everyone has played out of tune at some point, itâ€™s a worthless statement.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Any time you have lots of pedals and levers, you're gonna be out of tune...sometime...somewhere. (Let's not forget that there were no compensators back then!) The perfect intervals that we're used to hearing on E9th chords just aren't possible on C6th, but most of what ol' "Curls" did was pretty acceptable. That he used a lot of full chords (when other C6th players were more known for blistering single-note stuff) also contributed to what you're hearing.

Tolerances for those iffy harmonies vary greatly. My own ears are pretty sensitive, so like J.D., I pick up on a lot of stuff that a lot of players would ignore. Sharp ears are both a blessing...and a curse, it seems.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Was he out-of-tune? Yes, on occasion, but that sounded as though it was the vagaries of the available mechanics back then.

Was he one of the greatest to ever sit behind a steel? YES!

I raised this spectre many years ago here on the Forum and, unsurprisingly, I was shot down for my comments. When I listen to Curly's 'Big Hits...', what I hear is someone challenging the outer boundaries in terms of chord inversions and falling slightly foul of the instrument's mechanical limitations. Curly himself didn't sound as if he had any limitations.

And what about that right-hand of his??? Whoa!

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

Jeff Newman once commented that a steel guitar is never really in tune. I felt a better after he said thatðŸ˜Ž
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I'll tell you what. If I could play like Chalker, I'd be happy to be occasionally "out of tune" just like him - whatever that means.

I think some of this is personal taste. Chalker was a very bluesy player on C6. I don't think any steel player has ever done that bluesy jazz playing better than him, and things that sound right for blues might sound out of tune to someone who isn't into the style. For example, I've read Chet Atkins stating that he didn't like, e.g., singers sliding into a note. That kind of thing is a stylistic preference.

I'll also say that I always thought Chalker's E9 playing was absolutely impeccable, in every way, including tuning. Maybe there are examples that I haven't heard to the contrary, but everything I've heard was super in-tune.

I saw Curly a couple of times live in the 80s in Nashville, I got the impression of an extreme perfectionist, i.e., stuff was done intentionally. That's the light in which I view him.

scott murray · From: Asheville, NC

Dustin Rhodes · From: Owasso OK

Walter Webb · From: California, USA

I read somewhere that Curley had varying levels of commitment and concentration for doing his best in every situation... especially on gigs where he was a hired hand. I also wonder about the lifetime compensation a pedal steel guitarist might earn, even for such a great talent as Curley Chalker, on the scene working hard since at least the early 50s...

Jim Fogarty · From: Phila, Pa, USA

Depending on how sensitive your ear is, you can hear most EVERY steel player.....including the greats.....be varying degrees of "out of tune", especially live.

a) It's a constant struggle

b)It's the nature of the instrument

I also believe, the more complex you play, chordally, on the PSG, the more you have to compensate.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I don't think I ever heard any pitchiness in Curly's E9 playing. I 'get' the blues inference, but his occasional C6 inaccuracies were, I'm sure, caused by combinations of pedals and knees along with some calculated bar-slanting.

It's expecting a lot of the instrument in those circumstances.

And yes, Dave Mudgett, I too would accept a degree of pitchiness if I could achieve what Chalker did on steel guitar, as would most of us. Winking

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Dustin Rhodes · From: Owasso OK

Andrew Goulet · Posted 11 Aug 2021 5:32 am

I'm never out of tune, I just incorporate microtones into my playing Smile

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J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I never said CC didn't play amazing. I don't think he PLAYED so much out of tune, but I feel his change combinations had conflicts. And... as he was known to play good he also had a reputation to sometimes not to give much attention and dedication depending on the venue. Hank Thompson who LOVED steel guitar and was very aware of the fact that his steel players were a major force in having shaped his sound and fame, and loved to come visit steel guitar conventions, said a few carefully worded things about that. But the later was not my point.
My point was TUNING and why I chose to go against my heart (JI) and tune up ET... because or conflicts with change combinations.

Back to CC, was an amazing and remains an un-equaled, un-copied C6th player.
I also think he was most underrated on E9th. And he is one I most like to listen to playing E9t, because he was never shrill. He had something of a Jerry Byrd'esque touch on E9th. The fact that he had his E9th tuning on the back neck seems to have mislead many that it was "secondary" (like C6th would be "secondary" to so many D10 owners who only lean on it). That was as far as possible from the truth. He could also make that "old" MSA SING, whilst so many tried to argue that the older MSA's couldn't keep up with the other "two" brands.

It would seem that it would be an understatement to recognize that in everything we know CC did, he did it very much his way. And he managed to make it a living.

But yes, I can post many recordings, even off vinyl (older tapes tend to wobble after the decades) on which some of his chords are noticeably and sometimes painfully out of tune. I am sure, BE, JB, LG will have had a bad day occasionally, but I never heard recordings of them that made me look up and say "whaaaat?".
While I am at it, I think that for the same reasons, I have some times a hard time with some of Julian Tharpe. I don't believe there either that he was careless with his intonation, but some, many, of his pedal-lever combinations were plagued by very audible compromises. It still makes for some amazing material.
Jimmy Day published a steel guitar album, that I like a lot, with some "Jerry Byrd" tunes on PSG and then some orchestrated E9th Country hits of the era. There are several passages where he played painfully out of tune (or his guitar had lost tuning). It was noted immediately upon the release of the record and people scorned Tom Bradshaw for pointing out these somewhat surprising flaws on the Nashville record in his own publication (The Steel Guitarist). Why? Jimmy Day, remains one of the greatest and most influential players, even if he indeed played some clunkers on a record.

So why "challenge" someone on this if it wasn't for being un-true?
I admire CC and I listen a lot to him. I meant no disrespect.
I wished I could play like him. I can't. But if I could, I would want to sound in tune at any time.
And I don't always and then I hate myself and work on it.

... J-D.
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A Little Mental Health Warning:

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The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

There are certain 'sacred cows' here on the Forum. Any hint of what some see as criticism will land you in hot water.

I knew I should have left this alone. Sad

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Dustin Rhodes · From: Owasso OK

Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Honestly, I never noticed. And compared to what? He sounded more in tune than the horns on most jazz recordings, in my opinion.

https://youtu.be/-Eg2h7VP7pM
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Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Are we mistaking "out of tune" for "unusual chord inversions"? Curly was the king.

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

One of the guys who loved Curly's right hand technique was the Big 'E', and commented on it in the UK magazine Country Music People in the early 1970's. I have virtually every commercial recording that Curly played on. Some of his playing is outrageously incredible. Maurice Anderson once told me that Curly didn't always play the correct chords to some tunes. That didn't bother me in the least. I'd love to hear Curly play a modern pedal steel that could accept his percussive style and his huge polychords.

While a lost of steelers go into raptures about Curly's big chords and stellar right hand and so they should, for me though, I always loved the technique he has with his volume pedal. Just beyond smooth. Finally, pick blocking became de rigueur for a lot of players back in the 70's, many of whom thought that it was 'invented' by Paul Franklin. Curly Chalker had been pick blocking for decades before then, and many Hawaiian players had done so before Curly.
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Willie Sims · From: PADUCAH, KY, USA

WHYNOT CRITIZE PAUL FRANKLIN.TOMMY WHITE.LOYAD GREEN AND OTHER GREAT STEEL PLAYERS,THAT ARE STILL ALIVE.AT LEAST THEY CAN DEFEND THEIR PLAYING IF THEY WON'T TOO. CURLY CAN'T.
THEY PROBLEY HAVE FLAWES YOUR SINSTIVE EAR'S MIGHT HEAR.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Dustin Rhodes · From: Owasso OK

One thing that stands out to me about Curly is that on an instrument that sort of requires a player to plan ahead and be very intentional he played seemingly with alot of abandon. Sometimes when you really go for it you end up walking a fine line. That said if I was trying to show a rock or blues player a hot steel player I'd show them Curly because I think he would connect.

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