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Topic: Volume pedal - breaks up amp at low volumes |
Cameron Warner
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2021 6:46 am |
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Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and PSG, thanks for having me.
I've been having an issue where if I depress my volume pedal all the way it distorts my amp, no matter the volume. It doesn't do this with my six string guitar, so I'm thinking maybe just the steel's pickups are way hotter (?).
The pedal is a Goodrich H-120. Amplifier is a Blackstar 40 watt 1x12 tube combo. Guitar is a Justice S10-Jr.
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I thought maybe the volume pedal could be adjusted so that it doesn't reach the full volume and therefore wouldn't push the amp's front end into breaking up, but I'm not sure how to do such an adjustment.
What do you all think I should do to prevent this?
(I'm in the market for a new amp regardless and, preferably, one that is suited well for both PSG and 6 string guitar.)
Thank you. |
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Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 12 Jul 2021 7:20 am
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Hey Cameron,
Pedal steel pickups are indeed way hotter than guitar pickups - it's not related to your volume pedal. You'll most likely need to turn your input gain down significantly, and then raise the master volume to make it cleaner. You could even start with the master all the way up, and just raise the input volume to where you need it - that will be the cleanest possible option.
A lot of steel players (although not all!) play with the amp fairly loud and the pedal down fairly low, which, if you're mostly a guitar player and your production style is the modern "boost with pedals" approach, rather than the old school "attenuate with volume knob" style, it may be an adjustment. In those cases, if you put the pedal to the floor and then picked a note loudly, it would be *way* louder than is appropriate.
I went through a phase early on where I always plugging into the 2nd input of my Fender amps when I played steel, which has a bit of a pad on it. I don't do that anymore, but it's an option to check out, if you run into an amp that has two inputs.
Have fun! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Jul 2021 7:22 am
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Yes, steel pickups put out a lot more than straight guitar picks. So, to reduce distortion, it's important that you have the master volume all the way up, and that you use the clean channel. That way, you're less likely to overload the input of the amp. (Running the master all the way up forces you to use less volume pedal, which lowers the input signal to the amp.)
You may also find benefit in lowering the pickup in the guitar, which also helps reduce the input signal to the amp. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2021 7:23 am
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| The output of the pedal steel is hotter than your guitar for sure and tube amps in general tend to break up when you drive them. Certainly you could adjust the pot in the pedal so that it doesn't reach full on but make sure that the pot never stops the throw in either direction or the pot will fail eventually. Also- make sure that the master gain in your amp is set higher than the pre-amp gain.- Sorry- I was responding at the same time as Donny. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 12 Jul 2021 7:44 am
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| Been said above, but let me put into my own words -- the most conventional use of the volume pedal is to pick with the pedal down.....40%? 50%....I'm making up numbers...and use the rest of the pedal sweep to extend the sustain of the picked note. So when you sound check, you should sound check at that halfway level. The amp should almost never be receiving the guitar's fresh-picked full signal. If you were to attenuate the signal via a pedal modification, you would be losing much of its function. |
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Cameron Warner
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2021 7:56 am
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Thanks for the replies! I'll try bringing the master volume up and leaving my preamp volume low. I'll post back with results later tonight/tomorrow early.
I didn't think I'd have to do anything to the volume pedal, but just wanted to confirm.
But anyway, I've been at it now for a week and boy, this instrument is loads of fun. I can't wait to get decent at it!  |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Jul 2021 9:15 am
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Not sure exactly which Blackstar amp you have. There's more than one 40-watt amp. I have a Blackstar HT Studio 20, which is really designed as a rock and roll guitar amp, primarily made to break up. But it does have a "Clean" channel which can work for pedal steel at moderate volumes. Not exactly my favorite, but it can work. What is yours - the HT Club 40? That is pretty similar to mine but with extra power.
Assuming your tone stack is similar to mine, Donny's correct - turn the Master Volume all the way up and turn the preamp volume ("Volume") up to suit and, as Jon says, set it so you can get a clean sound with the volume pedal something like 30/40-50% of the full volume to leave yourself some room to get extra sustain as notes die off. Adjust tone controls to taste and see if all this helps.
Most Blackstar amps I've seen (including mine) also have the ISF control, which takes the tone stack between a classic "American" type of amp like a Fender (fully counter-clockwise) and a "British" type of amp like a Marshall (fully clockwise). So I also recommend starting fully counter-clockwise to get a cleaner, more mid-scooped sound more in the Fender realm. Once you get a reasonable tone dialed in, you can mess further with that and the tone controls.
As far as an amp for both guitar and PSG, this will depend on what you want your guitar to sound like. If you like a fairly clean guitar sound, it's hard to beat an old Fender blackface/silverface IMO. If you want more breakup on the guitar at a reasonable volume, it gets a bit more complicated - you're probably looking at something with a couple of channels with both a really good clean sound and a good breakup sound. My experience is that not many amps are really great in both departments and have pretty much resigned myself to getting fairly clean tube amps that take an overdrive well. After trying literally dozens of overdrives, my favorite is still the Mad Professor Simble, which is sort of a Dumble type of sound. Very warm and touch-responsive. Not gonna do any metal though. I still think an old pre-Master-Volume Twin Reverb is about as good as it gets for clean pedal steel if you want loud, and amps like the Pro Reverb, Super Reverb, and so on are also great if you don't need things so loud. They take the Simble and other good overdrive pedals well.
I also really like my Swiss-army-knife Quilter Tone Block 201 (or the newer 202). Weighs a few pounds, puts out 200 Watts, and really sounds good for what it is.
But you can go down a very deep rabbit hole on amps.  |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 12 Jul 2021 9:22 am
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| It's worth mentioning that IF you are dug in, by choice or by circumstance, to stick with this amp and if it remains too easy to overdrive, you can investigate swapping out preamp tubes for some lower gain tubes. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 13 Jul 2021 1:13 am
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Seeing you mentioned you are a new player, one thing of note, when you use your V-Pedal you should be in the 50 to 70% range, not 100%. We use the full output for sustain of chords, notes, or soft chimes. Learning to use a V-Pedal with consistency is very tricky, actually make that "HARD"
its very easy to play REAL LOUD and overdrive an amp, ANY amp.
When I was teaching I recommended to the students to practice with a small length of 2 x 4 on the floor rather than the V -Pedal . You can't PUSH the 2x4 down with your foot. Its right foot training.
anyway, best to you on your journey , welcome aboard ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bill Ferguson
From:
Milton, FL USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2021 5:57 am
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Well welcome to our whacky world of steel guitar.
All the suggestions listed are good.
One more thought that I did not see.
Possibly a bad volume pot near the end of the sweep. A way to find out is to bypass your volume pedal completely and plug from your steel directly to your amp.
If you get any distortion, then it's not your volume pedal. If you don't get distortion, then, I would be thinking about a volume pot or simply adjusting the travel of your existing volume pot.
I'm hear to help anytime I can.
_________________
AUTHORIZED George L's, Goodrich, Telonics and Peavey Dealer: I have 2 steels and several amps. My current rig of choice is 1993 Emmons LeGrande w/ 108 pups (Jack Strayhorn built for me), Goodrich OMNI Volume Pedal, George L's cables, Goodrich Baby Bloomer and Peavey Nashville 112. Can't get much sweeter. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 13 Jul 2021 8:25 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
Seeing you mentioned you are a new player, one thing of note, when you use your V-Pedal you should be in the 50 to 70% range, not 100%. We use the full output for sustain of chords, notes, or soft chimes. Learning to use a V-Pedal with consistency is very tricky, actually make that "HARD"
its very easy to play REAL LOUD and overdrive an amp, ANY amp.
When I was teaching I recommended to the students to practice with a small length of 2 x 4 on the floor rather than the V -Pedal . You can't PUSH the 2x4 down with your foot. Its right foot training.
anyway, best to you on your journey , welcome aboard ! |
I did the same with students. I used that method when I first started. I was a drummer, so you can imagine whst that was like on the volume pedal. It was all about getting more control of my ankle muscles. I nailed a small block at one end of the 2x4 to raise it to an angle like a real volume pedal.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Cameron Warner
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2021 10:25 am
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So the clean channel seems to break up easily wherever I have the dials. I've been having better luck with the overdrive channel with the gain set to ~1.
Jon, I was thinking about putting 12AY7s in the amp. If I do I'll have to let you know how it is afterward.
Dave, it is in fact a HT Club 40. I have the ISF set to "american" and I usually always keep it there.
Tony, Richard, the 2x4 is something I'll have to try out. I've been getting better with the v-pedal in terms of not going too loud initially, and letting the remaining volume come up as the note decays. It's tricky!
Bill, as far as I know the pedal was barely used and not very old. I bought it second-hand but the seller told me he had used it maybe twice. I'll test it out, though.
Thanks for the replies, everyone. This is a nice community and a great resource to have! I appreciate it. |
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Bill Ferguson
From:
Milton, FL USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2021 10:38 am
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It does not make any difference how much a pedal as been used. It could have a bad volume pot from the gitgo.
_________________
AUTHORIZED George L's, Goodrich, Telonics and Peavey Dealer: I have 2 steels and several amps. My current rig of choice is 1993 Emmons LeGrande w/ 108 pups (Jack Strayhorn built for me), Goodrich OMNI Volume Pedal, George L's cables, Goodrich Baby Bloomer and Peavey Nashville 112. Can't get much sweeter. |
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Cameron Warner
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2021 11:46 am
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| Bill Ferguson wrote: |
| It does not make any difference how much a pedal as been used. It could have a bad volume pot from the gitgo. |
Good point, I'll take your advice for the future if any mishaps like this occur and I appreciate that. I do think the pedal is AOK, though. I'll let you know if this isn't the case, however.
Regarding the amp: I came up with the idea of going straight into the effects loop return to bypass the preamp section completely. It works and sounds beautifully clean. I don't know why I hadn't thought of this before now.
Of course I lose my onboard EQ but, to be honest, my ears think it sounds great as is. |
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Bill Ferguson
From:
Milton, FL USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2021 1:31 pm
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Take a guitar cable and plug it in and out of the Jack as quickly as you can in about 10 or 15 times and maybe that will clean the Jack and solve your problem
_________________
AUTHORIZED George L's, Goodrich, Telonics and Peavey Dealer: I have 2 steels and several amps. My current rig of choice is 1993 Emmons LeGrande w/ 108 pups (Jack Strayhorn built for me), Goodrich OMNI Volume Pedal, George L's cables, Goodrich Baby Bloomer and Peavey Nashville 112. Can't get much sweeter. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2024 10:48 am
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| Quote: |
| Regarding the amp: I came up with the idea of going straight into the effects loop return to bypass the preamp section completely. It works and sounds beautifully clean. I don't know why I hadn't thought of this before now. |
Because you didn’t know, and now you do. That is a great way to test the guitar electronics for clarity and pure signal. Did you connect with the VP too?
Without a boost from the preamp section, the sound will probably not be loud enough in a band situation. Plus, you will eventually miss not having any eq. It’s fine for just practicing or playing for your own enjoyment. |
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Jay Coover
From:
Nashville, TN, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2024 1:55 pm
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Just to make sure...if you remove the volume pedal does it still break up? It should, because it would be hard to imagine a volume pedal breaking up. It could produce noise, especially when its moved if a potentiometer is bad, but the breakup is probably coming from the steel guitar>amp combo.
Got any other amps? I love my little spark practice amp using the Fender Twin model. I've found that bass amps can work pretty well with steel guitar, but of course haven't tried them all. Last resort would be buying an actual steel guitar amp...LOL
Good luck!
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GFI Expo S-10 3x5
Goodrich 120 |
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