| Author |
Topic: Strung up 2 x 4 sounds like '68 Bolt-on |
Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
|
Posted 30 Jul 2006 7:57 am |
|
I'd like to thank Ed Packard and Joe Meditz for spending their time measuring sonic output of a number of guitars at Steel Guitars of North County recently using a number of computer programs including Frequency Spectrum Analysis and Wave Form Analysis. Ed now has me well-trained about evaluation- there is no good/better/bad- that is for each individual to determine independently- there just is what is. We measured a number of guitars including Ed's "The Beast" 14 string 30" scale Sierra, my Anapeg, David Wright's M3 Milennium, Joe's S10 Fessenden, a ShoBud Professional, a Carter Starter, Greg Leisz's Emmons D10 Push-Pull, a '68 Emmons S10 bolt-on PP, a Sierra Crown Series 25" scale S10 and maybe a few more- I don't 'zactly recall. A few of the measurements performed include the effect of new vs. old strings and pickup-string proximity on sustain and frequency, the effect of picking direction on sustain and frequency including variations seen using blade vs. pole piece pickups, and measuring each guitar's wave form picking various strings and string combinations up the neck. This was done over 2 days and David Wright made the obvious statement that the player has the greatest effect on what comes out of the guitar and there will be no argument from me that it's true. However- I am sure that most of us have played guitars that simply sound different than others (I didn't say "better"- ok Ed?). One of the reasons for us to do this work was to see if we could see what the terms "string separation" and "growl" and "clear, bell-like tone up the neck" look like when measured. These are not our terms- they are just commonly found in steel lingo as "support groups" of steel players get together to describe what it is that they are hearing that they commonly find as desirable characteristics of a steel guitar- having nothing to do with playability or feel. Six months ago Ed and I measured roughly 30 different physical characteristics of each of 35 different pedal steel guitars combined with his Frequency Spectrum Analysis of each of these guitars with the intent being to see if there were any common characteristics that contributed to certain wave forms. See Ed's previous posts about the resulting graphs.
There is a lot of work yet to be done just picking apart the data that we've collected in order just to present it to anyone who cares and it will be forthcoming (I'm leaving that totally up to Ed and Joe as I am just the "Go-fer" on this project). My thinking was- if the guitar is removed from the equation after the sound is made (after it leaves the guitar)- and the guitar is simply a semi-complicated attenuator of sorts of what is presented to the string, and the output of each guitar can be measured, and that measured data can be manipulated, can a strung up 2 x 4 be made to sound like a different guitar- ie. a '68 Emmons bolt-on or whatever your favorite guitar is?[This message was edited by Jim Palenscar on 30 July 2006 at 09:01 AM.] [This message was edited by Jim Palenscar on 30 July 2006 at 12:28 PM.] |
|
|
 |
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
Posted 30 Jul 2006 8:58 am
|
|
I hope so. It would be a lot lighter to carry!  |
|
|
|
Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 30 Jul 2006 9:49 am
|
|
I'm not an Emmons guitar fan but I'll beat one of them to saying that it would probably have to be black...
EJL |
|
|
|
Joseph Meditz
From:
Sierra Vista, AZ
|
Posted 30 Jul 2006 2:19 pm
|
|
Jim, thanks for letting us set up and do these measurements in your store. And thanks for all the time you put into it. You actually worked the hardest!
For the record, here is the list of steels that were measured:
Anapeg Jim's
BEAST Ed's
Carter Starter
EMCI Jim's
Emmons P-P S10 Jim's
Emmons P-P D10 Greg Leisz's
Fessy S10 Joe's
MSA M3 Millenium S12 David Wright's
Sho-Bud Professional Jim's
Sierra Gearless 25 Jim's
We certainly have plenty of data to crunch!
http://www.stlgitr.com/
Steel Guitars of North County is a magical place. There aren't too many places where one can walk in, inquire about a steel, tell the guy sitting behind an M3 that he is interested in playing blues with the guy behind the M3 being David Wright!
Joe
|
|
|
|
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
|
Posted 31 Jul 2006 6:17 am
|
|
Back up on my mountain after a great weekend at Jim P's steel guitar sandbox in Oceanside Ca. I dropped in Fri AM to drop off my gear for the Sat session, and stayed all day. We profiled some instruments that we did not have available last Dec for the 32 PSG evaluation...one of these was David Wright's MSA Millenium M3...complete with David attached. David "salt" provided background music, insults, and sundry sales pitches while we were getting data.
One of the Fri tests was to take several instruments and vary the proximity of the pickup re the strings...the measure the amplitude, harmonic content, and harmonic content vs. time. This data will provide an insight into a number of things, including any "damping" effect caused by the magnets pulling on the string(s).
Fri night was at McCabe's, where Rick Schmidt and the CA. Rangers held forth. Rick is a complete musical package, with his D12, Synth axe, and vocals...he is more than a PSG picker, he is a musician!
Sat, Joe Meditz came into the sandbox, and we (actually he and Jim) did a different series of measurements on some representative instruments. Joe is an up to date EE with a penchant for numerical analysis. He is hooked (as Jim P appears to be now) on analyzing the PSG responses, and defining the causes. We all left with the same data on CD, and can now apply our own "techniques" to it's reduction and presentation.
The resulting plots will show up somewhere, so stay tuned for the announcement. The FSA plots and photos of the MSA, and others will be added to the PHOTOBUCKET site as I get them reduced and formatted.
The site has had over 5000 hits since the 7th of July...someone is reading the plots/photos.
Thanks to Jim P for hosting this project, and to David W, Jay Dee, Jim Barron, Jim West, and others for the use of their instruments.
It would be interesting to have Joe Meditz, and Dave Mudgett discuss the PSG (and sub parts) as a "system".
|
|
|
|
Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
|
Posted 31 Jul 2006 9:12 am
|
|
A mighty noble adventure you folks have embarked on... My compliments.
I'm happy to learn that "growl" is an official "steel" tone description. That's the only term I could think of to describe some of the notes that appear once in a while in some of Jimmy Day's work. |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 31 Jul 2006 9:51 am
|
|
I really wanted to come, but it's a 2 hour drive each way, and I had a bunch of other stuff to do.
I am getting an EMG active pickup and tone control system for my Millennium. This is an experiment. I have no idea how it will sound. It may be the best thing to happen to the steel guitar since the invention of pedals. or it may be a total bust.
I say "am getting" because it is in the mail as I write this, and will probably arrive later today or tomorrow. If it had arrived in time, I would have driven down to Jim's shop so it could hve been included in the testing.
Ed, if you do another one of these, I'll come down and bring the pickup and control box. |
|
|
|
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
|
Posted 2 Aug 2006 1:55 pm
|
|
Mike...You do not need me involved...Jim P is now set up to do those profiles of the instruments. Now I can move on to the next step(s).
The Photos of the MSA MIllenium M3, Carter starter, plus ? are now on PHOTOBUCKET. The sustain/tone charts are there for the MSA Millenium M3.
|
|
|
|
ebb
From:
nj
|
Posted 2 Aug 2006 4:28 pm
|
|
| are we now going to see 2x4s bidded up on ebay!? |
|
|
|
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
|
Posted 2 Aug 2006 5:36 pm
|
|
Ebb...I recall asession at the Horseshoe club in the San Jose area...lots of 3000 to 5000 $ rigs all fired up. In walks William Penix = Joe Bob carrying an old saw horse with 6 strings anchored with piano tuner pegs, lead pencil fret markers, an old National pickup held on with a rubber band...wiped us all out!
He was most pleased when Bill Stafford said "let me try that thing".
2X4s got a lot goin' for them. |
|
|
|
ebb
From:
nj
|
Posted 2 Aug 2006 6:09 pm
|
|
| i got it. the tone is in the 2x4 and the message is in the hands. i believe it but dont think it will get past the intelligent design guys |
|
|
|
David Wright
From:
Pilot Point ,Tx USA.
|
Posted 2 Aug 2006 11:42 pm
|
|
thanks for all the kind words Ed!,, had funn!!!!!!!!! did my M~3 win!!!!
------------------
 M.S.A.
M.S.A. Millennium
S-12 9 & 6
Bb is where it's at!
Peavey-2000-PX-300
David's Web Page
|
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 3 Aug 2006 3:20 am
|
|
so basically, if you go to a gig, and somehow forget yout Steel..
you can go to Home Depot ?
But it was never stated clearly..
Premium 2x4's or just the regular stack for the Saturday afternoon fix-er'uppers ?
t ?
|
|
|
|
Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
|
Posted 3 Aug 2006 4:46 am
|
|
| Will a Black and Decker "Workmate" conversion kit be coming out soon? [This message was edited by Ray Minich on 03 August 2006 at 05:47 AM.] |
|
|
|
Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 3 Aug 2006 7:44 am
|
|
Jim, a '68 bolt on? No such thing.
Ha! your buddy,
Bobbe |
|
|
|
