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Topic: Keyless GFI Ultra |
Brentley Dahmer
From:
Richmond, VA
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Posted 8 May 2021 4:56 am |
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Hello Forum Wizards,
Found a guy selling this along with a Peavey Nashville 112, Case/Seat and other accessories for $2500.
I've got it on hold now and getting things lined up to go pick it up next week.
The seller doesn't know much about it so I wanted to share here and see if anything jumps out at anyone.
One player told me to be weary of the Keyless tuning system being a hassle and that they can wear out over time (?)
Love any feedback ya got.
Thanks
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 8 May 2021 5:59 am
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GFI company has a top notch reputation for taking care of GFI customers even if you buy one of there steels used.
I would not worry about the keyless mechanism I doubt you will ever have a problem with it.
Last edited by Johnie King on 8 May 2021 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 8 May 2021 6:42 am
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Price seems fair.
I have a GFI Ultra D-10 keyed version, but wouldn't hesitate on a keyless version. I don't recall seeing any problem posts about the keyless. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Brentley Dahmer
From:
Richmond, VA
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Posted 8 May 2021 8:16 am
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| Johnie King wrote: |
GFI company has a top notch reputation for taking care of GFI customers even if you buy one of there steels used.
I would not worry about the keyless mechanism I doubt you will ever have a problem with it.
Let’s see what a actual steel dealer would ask.
Pro Keyless GFI Steel $2500
Pac a seat used $250
Peavy 112 amp used $400 |
Thanks - I also live about an hour from Billy Cooper's here in VA so figured worst case I could take it to him for some work if need be.
Seemed like a good deal to me, I was quoted $2453 for a New Expo S-10 last week. |
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Brentley Dahmer
From:
Richmond, VA
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Posted 8 May 2021 8:29 am
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Is the hysteresis with your instrument a problem that needs to be fixed or a common problem among these models.
Did find another post mentioning but replies claim it just needs to be fixed.
Thanks for the info |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 8 May 2021 9:26 am
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| Brentley Dahmer wrote: |
Is the hysteresis with your instrument a problem that needs to be fixed or a common problem among these models.
Did find another post mentioning but replies claim it just needs to be fixed. |
The few Ultra Keyless I have test-played behave the same as mine: slip/hang on the nut-bolt makes return from lower land too high-pitched and return from raise low-pitched. Thus, it is a problem with that model.
On mine it is a real problem with return to neutral from the 6th string lower, and it does not help that I prefer wound 6th for its tonal qualities and thereby have a longer throw for raising/lowering than a plain 6th would.
I have gone through every little mechanical detail on my Keyless, and tested all methods for eliminating the "high-pitched return to neutral from lower". The only "trick" that "works" is to grease the string where it lay over the nut-bolt, which eliminates the slip/hang problem entirely – for about 30 seconds of playing till the string bites through the grease-layer.
All that grease-test tells me, is that the GFI Ultra Keyless has a serious flaw, and that the nut-bolt should be replaced with nut-rollers as on most other PSGs.
FWIW: although I rely entirely on ear for what I find acceptable or not, my electronic tuner and a frequency counter show the same deviations.
I have contemplated modifying mine for nut-rollers since the GFI Ultra Keyless otherwise is a nice instrument, but haven't bothered so far since I have other PSGs (with nut-rollers) that do not have any such slip/hang problems. |
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Brentley Dahmer
From:
Richmond, VA
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Posted 8 May 2021 9:43 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| Brentley Dahmer wrote: |
Is the hysteresis with your instrument a problem that needs to be fixed or a common problem among these models.
Did find another post mentioning but replies claim it just needs to be fixed. |
The few Ultra Keyless I have test-played behave the same as mine: slip/hang on the nut-bolt makes return from lower land too high-pitched and return from raise low-pitched. Thus, it is a problem with that model.
On mine it is a real problem with return to neutral from the 6th string lower, and it does not help that I prefer wound 6th for its tonal qualities and thereby have a longer throw for raising/lowering than a plain 6th would.
I have gone through every little mechanical detail on my Keyless, and tested all methods for eliminating the "high-pitched return to neutral from lower". The only "trick" that "works" is to grease the string where it lay over the nut-bolt, which eliminates the slip/hang problem entirely – for about 30 seconds of playing till the string bites through the grease-layer.
All that grease-test tells me, is that the GFI Ultra Keyless has a serious flaw, and that the nut-bolt should be replaced with nut-rollers as on most other PSGs.
FWIW: although I rely entirely on ear for what I find acceptable or not, my electronic tuner and a frequency counter show the same deviations.
I have contemplated modifying mine for nut-rollers since the GFI Ultra Keyless otherwise is a nice instrument, but haven't bothered so far since I have other PSGs (with nut-rollers) that do not have any such slip/hang problems. |
Thank you for this detailed info.
What would a be a guess on the cost of modification to nut-rollers?
Agreed, they seem to be great guitars and it seems odd they would all have this same issue and still be played by such great players - but then again they could be doing mods as you suggest. |
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Brentley Dahmer
From:
Richmond, VA
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 8 May 2021 10:29 am
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| I am not much of an engineer, but I can see a problem. Although it says "No measurable movement at the nut", the problem would be, not movement, but difference in tension of the string, before/after the nut, and even that same problem where the string goes over the tuning fingers. The difference in tension has been shown in instability of tuning. Rollers on the nut would help, maybe even rollers over the tuning fingers. Without finger rollers, it may help to reduce the tuning-finger to nut distance, giving less room for tension difference error.......Pat |
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Michael Hill
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 8 May 2021 12:03 pm
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| I have a GFI keyless and it behaves exactly as Georg describes. The biggest issue is after 6 string lower it returns sharp. What I do is lower and release 6 while tuning. Then while playing, if 6 goes flat, I'll lower it to get it back up to pitch. It's pretty easy to manage. I have considered not lowering 6 to eliminate the issue. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 8 May 2021 1:17 pm
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Yes, I have of course read that, and when I told Gene Fields (RIP) about the problem at a TSGA show, he insisted that I "could not hear it". Well, neither my hearing nor my measuring instruments are impressed by such statements. Just a pity that I believed them before I bought this used GFI.
As for fixes:
Not possible to make the problem go away by shortening the distance between tuning finger and nut. Tried that of course, and it still slips and hangs with the shortest distance technically possible.
A replacement "bolt" consisting of rollers with spacers on an axle – alternatively "PAC-MAN rollers on knife-edge, can be made. Has to dismantle the existing one to see what will work best, and as mentioned: so far I haven't bothered.
I neither sell nor give away objects with known flaws like that, so I may end up "fixing it" with a 12 pound hammer and forget all about it  |
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Brentley Dahmer
From:
Richmond, VA
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Posted 8 May 2021 1:25 pm
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
Yes, I have of course read that, and when I told Gene Fields (RIP) about the problem at a TSGA show, he insisted that I "could not hear it". Well, neither my hearing nor my measuring instruments are impressed by such statements. Just a pity that I believed them before I bought this used GFI.
As for fixes:
Not possible to make the problem go away by shortening the distance between tuning finger and nut. Tried that of course, and it still slips and hangs with the shortest distance technically possible.
A replacement "bolt" consisting of rollers with spacers on an axle – alternatively "PAC-MAN rollers on knife-edge, can be made. Has to dismantle the existing one to see what will work best, and as mentioned: so far I haven't bothered.
I neither sell nor give away objects with known flaws like that, so I may end up "fixing it" with a 12 pound hammer and forget all about it |
Thanks again for all the info.
I emailed GFI and sent a link to this thread -
Hopefully someone checks it out and possibly weigh in as well. |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 8 May 2021 3:37 pm
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| Well Bobby Seymour very often would take the nut rollers out of a push pull an replace them with a round piece of steel an use a little pencil lead for reducing friction. He said that this gave him better tone. |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 8 May 2021 3:56 pm
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Mooney one of greatsâ€!!
 : : :
Last edited by Johnie King on 8 May 2021 5:46 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Leo Grassl
From:
Madison TN
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Posted 8 May 2021 5:12 pm
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| I have regrettably witnessed unacceptable hysteresis on the keyless GFIs. I was having an issue with my guitar and had to borrow a friends keyless GFI for two weeks. It was a hysteresis nightmare. I actually really like the standard GFIs and wouldn’t hesitate to buy one of those. I’ve owned three and they were all wonderful guitars. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 8 May 2021 8:32 pm
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I have a GFI keyless SD10 that looks just like the one in the OP (mine is old enough that the changer finger tops are aluminum--I believe they changed to either stainless steel or some other form of steel--when I asked them to change the fingers over while my guitar was at GFI for other service, they refused.) "Hysteresis"--I wish we would stop using that inaccurate term--is, in my case, generally no more, nor any less, than on my other (six  ), keyed, steels. (Actually, in truth, a couple of them have less).
It seems clear to me that the phenomenon of strings returning sharp from a mechanical lower--on whatever mechanism(s)--has not been definitively explained, though there are many who believe they know the answer to why/how.
What else seems clear to me, from my own experience, is that if the right tuning approach is applied, the above problem matters little in actual musical performance. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 8 May 2021 10:30 pm
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More vibrato. Before the advent of electronic tuners this phenomenon didn't exist  . |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 9 May 2021 12:40 am
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| Jim Palenscar wrote: |
| Before the advent of electronic tuners this phenomenon didn't exist . |
A plausible, and often repeated, explanation, that can be applied all over the place when it comes to PSGs.
Sorry, but I can not see how electronic tuners (that are not in use), can affect an instrument's behavior or what I observe/hear when playing same instrument.
My old notes…
GFI Ultra
… and I have not found good reasons to rewrite them.
| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| It seems clear to me that the phenomenon of strings returning sharp from a mechanical lower--on whatever mechanism(s)--has not been definitively explained, though there are many who believe they know the answer to why/how. |
As retired mechatronic engineer I tend to sort and file what to "believe" in in anything in a dedicated "folder" (not appropriate to open here), and focus on observing and figuring out "mechanical phenomenons" as such.
I may not have all the answers, nor all solutions, regarding what is known by most in the PSG world as "hysteresis", but not a single word in my notes on the subject is based on beliefs…
the pedal steel guitar … and its many peculiarities – #1
I haven't included the GFI Ultra Keyless "nut-bolt" in those notes, but "varying tension and friction" plays the same roles at both ends of a PSG's string-attachments, and the "nut-bolt" is just a bit "unique" and not found on many PSGs – maybe for a reason? |
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Joe Krumel
From:
Hermitage, Tn.
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Posted 9 May 2021 6:00 am
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| Hi Brently. I have that identical guitar and amp. Been playing it for many years trouble free. The keyless thing scares many people,not sure why.GFI steels are built like tanks,but play and sound great. That price for all that gear is pretty fair in my mind. JK |
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Brentley Dahmer
From:
Richmond, VA
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Posted 9 May 2021 8:06 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
I have gone through every little mechanical detail on my Keyless, and tested all methods for eliminating the "high-pitched return to neutral from lower". The only "trick" that "works" is to grease the string where it lay over the nut-bolt, which eliminates the slip/hang problem entirely – for about 30 seconds of playing till the string bites through the grease-layer.
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What do you think about the suggestion of Graphite on the Bolt or some other finite lubrication? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 9 May 2021 9:19 am
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| Brentley Dahmer wrote: |
| What do you think about the suggestion of Graphite on the Bolt or some other finite lubrication? |
Finding a "mixture" that lasts for a while (at least a few hours) as surface layer on top of that nut-bolt, and that does not muffle the open-string tone, will be hard enough. I haven't tested with graphite, but my "educated guess" is that it won't last very long.
The thing is: you either have to reduce the friction to an absolute minimum (with graphite or whatever) so the strings will slip extremely easy back and forth – same as they will do with properly working nut-rollers on any other PSG. Or, you have to clamp the strings onto the bolt once they are tuned up, in effect increase the friction so the strings cannot slip at all. Both "solutions" are impractical on that PSG. |
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Bruce Derr
From:
Lee, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 9 May 2021 1:13 pm
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My Ultra S-10 keyless is one of my favorite and most reliable guitars, but I can see how lowering a wound 6th could be an issue in this design, with the longer throw and additional friction caused by the wound string. I too prefer a wound 6th, but I don't lower it. If I did, I'd try the plain 6th. Maybe that would tame the symptom to an acceptable level.
Overall I am happy with my Ultra. It stays in tune, it's lightweight and compact, and it sounds great. It's easy to change pulls, the company has been responsive, and parts are available and reasonable. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 10 May 2021 2:19 am
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There is "hysteresis" on roller nut guitars too so whether the no roller is the real issue? I both raise and lower the 6th string (and others) and there is hysteresis on them all and I have the roller nuts.
GFI factory strings are the SIT Buddy Emmons which includes a .022 plain string for the 6th string. I'm using SIT Sho-Bud sets on my GFI Ultra which is a .020 plain string. I didn't like the heavier gauges of the Buddy Emmons sets, but both the .022 and .020 have hysteresis on the 6th string.
The D-10 Franklin I had was roller nuts and it too had hysteresis, but it was tamed with the Franklin drop return compensators - the primary thing that sold me on Franklin's in 1982. I was playing a 71 D-10 Emmons PP which has roller nuts and I was tired of fighting the hysteresis. |
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Brentley Dahmer
From:
Richmond, VA
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Posted 11 May 2021 10:08 am
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Just wanted to say-
Bob at GFI and a few other well known players that use GFI keyless models have responded to some emails I sent over the weekend.
All and all I think this is a good deal for me and I want to thank everyone here for their responses and the research that it pushed me to do just to know what many of you were talking about.
I've been playing a 49' Fender Dual Pro for the past 2 years and had a PSG lesson with Billy Cooper, but so much of this is of course uncharted territory for me.
Thanks SGF |
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