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Topic: Lever naming conventions in tabs question |
Steven Schwartz
From:
Longview Washington, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 3:56 am |
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I am looking at a Hudson 10 string 3 pedals 4 knee levers.
The Hudson tuning chart names the knee levers LKL, LKR, etc.
Doug Beaumeir tabs seems to label the knee levers D,E,F, etc.
Troy (Lessons with Troy) uses the full LKL naming in his tabs. It is very small and hard to read.
Is there a standard used in tabs or do I have get used to using various systems.
Color me newbie and confused
Steve
P.S. I have not purchased the Doug Beaumeir book yet, the sample pages on his web site shows the tuning chart. |
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James Sission
From:
Sugar Land,Texas USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 4:06 am
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There is no standard because of all the different configurations of guitars. It's pretty common to see > or < next to a string for a raise or lower. I like Herb Steiner and Paul Fraklin's method of + for 1/2 step raise ++ for full raise, - for lower and so on. This method also pretty much forces you to know what your levers actually do which will assist you later on when you want to improvise.
PS Here is how Paul and Herb tab:
– means a half tone lower
– – means a whole tone lower
+ means a half tone raise
++ means a whole tone raise
You can always modify your tabs you already have to make them all the same for your own learning purposes. If you do that, you will also be learning your guitar and at some point you'll understand why your doing those changes as well.
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Last edited by James Sission on 30 Mar 2021 4:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 4:06 am
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When I was learning to drive, around 1968, my parents had just bought a cheap Renault. It had the turn signal on the right side of the steering wheel. The steel guitar thing always makes me think of that. When learning to use the signal, it was a matter of being told to hit the turn signal lever, not "hit the right side lever!!"
No, there is no convention and there are many different ways to denote the levers. The important thing to learn is what the levers on your steel do -- they very well may not match the levers on someone else's steel.
You need to find out what the tab writer's key is and just get used to it for that person's tab. Does his LKR lower the E's? Or does he write 'L' and 'R' meaning 'lower' and 'raise'?
It is unfortunate, it is confusing, but everyone has their own way of writing. |
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John Spaulding
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 4:41 am
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You might try learning the guitar by memorizing the intervals it is tuned to and by what degree those intervals are changed by the various levers and pedals. Learn where those levers and pedals are on YOUR guitar. That will give you the knowledge needed regardless of the particular TAB style.
Here's a blog post on Paul Franklin's preferred TAB notation as mentioned by James Sission: My Tab Symbols
A blog post on Intervals: Thinking In Intervals
Here's info on Paul's $99 beginner course: Foundations: E9 Pedal Steel Basics |
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James Sission
From:
Sugar Land,Texas USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 4:43 am
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| John Spaulding wrote: |
You might try learning the guitar by memorizing the intervals it is tuned to and by what degree those intervals are changed by the various levers and pedals. Learn where those levers and pedals are on YOUR guitar. That will give you the knowledge needed regardless of the particular TAB style.
Here's a blog post on Paul Franklin's preferred TAB notation as mentioned by James Sission: My Tab Symbols
A blog post on Intervals: Thinking In Intervals
Here's info on Paul's $99 beginner course: Foundations: E9 Pedal Steel Basics |
Thank you, I wasn't sure if it was my place to post things from Paul's lesson's since but that's what I was getting at. There is A LOT of information is that course for 99 bucks.
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William Carter
From:
Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 4:44 am Re: Lever naming conventions in tabs question
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| Steven Schwartz wrote: |
Color me newbie and confused
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I went through the same confusion. The answer is "it depends on who wrote the tabs".
I think the most common that I have seen is D E F X. D would be lower 4&8, and F would be raise 4&8. X would be the common vertical lever configuration.
I would also come across some tabs where E was lower 4&8. In some very very old tablature, L would be lower 4&8. I was told this was because at one time PSG only had one lever, and that was it, so they called it "L" for lever.
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ZumSteel D10, Mullen G2 SD12 Universal, Rittenberry SD10 |
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John Spaulding
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 4:54 am
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| Quote: |
| Thank you, I wasn't sure if it was my place to post things from Paul's lesson's since but that's what I was getting at. There is A LOT of information is that course for 99 bucks. |
No worries, James! There's plenty of free information on Paul's blog (and our YouTube channel) that covers learning the tuning and TAB notation that are meant for public viewing.
The more knowledgeable musicians paying pedal steel, the better! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 5:38 am
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Actually William, back in the day of a single lever it lowered 2 and 8. 4 was already being raised by the C pedal so couldn't be lowered.
When it became possible to lower 4 as well, the functions were split in two, with one lever lowering 4&8 and the other lowering 2&9. These two levers became D&E, although confusion still arises from time to time over what to call which!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 7:01 am
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What I did, when I was a newbie, was to find out what lever on MY guitar did what the lever in the tab did, and take a pencil and write down which lever on my guitar (lkl lkr rkr etc...) that matched the changes in the tab, below the tab. There is no standard and probably never will be.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 1:56 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| probably |
but I'm certain there never will be!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 2:31 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| probably |
but I'm certain there never will be! |
I'm certain too. I just didn't want to say it.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 3:27 pm
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_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Steven Schwartz
From:
Longview Washington, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2021 4:10 pm Thanks everybody
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What a wonderful resource this forum is. I can ask a newbie question, and I learn so much.
What a hoard of information that you all graciously share.
Thank you to all who replied |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 4:10 am Re: Thanks everybody
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| Steven Schwartz wrote: |
What a wonderful resource this forum is. I can ask a newbie question, and I learn so much.
What a hoard of information that you all graciously share.
Thank you to all who replied |
This is definitely the place to be.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 4:33 am Re: Lever naming conventions in tabs question
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| William Carter wrote: |
| Steven Schwartz wrote: |
Color me newbie and confused
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I went through the same confusion. The answer is "it depends on who wrote the tabs".
I think the most common that I have seen is D E F X. D would be lower 4&8, and F would be raise 4&8. X would be the common vertical lever configuration.
I would also come across some tabs where E was lower 4&8. In some very very old tablature, L would be lower 4&8. I was told this was because at one time PSG only had one lever, and that was it, so they called it "L" for lever. |
Exactly. I always thought of the "E" lever as the one that activated a change (lowers) on my E strings. My "D" lever worked on lowering the 2nd string to D (and later to C# also). "F" lever has been the one that raises E's to F for as long as I can remember. Don't know who named it, but it has stuck for the 51 years I have been playing, and before (I assume).
When I talk to others about knee lever changes, I rarely (if ever) call them by a letter name as I would the pedals, because of the variations in letter names in use. I would say something like "the lever that lowers the E's" or "the lever that raises 1 & 2 (meaning raising 1 to G# and 2 to E)", or "the lever that raises 1 to G" (I have both of those levers on my guitar and have to assume others will have one or the other - maybe even both like me). There's no question as to what I am talking about that way. I also never use the terms lkl lkr etc.. as my lkl probably doesn't do what the other person's lkl does (I play a "Day" setup and my lkl lowers my E's. He may play "Emmons" setup where his E lowers might be on his lkr lever, or even on a lever on his right knee).
If I was writing tab for others, I would most likely use the method of putting - -- + ++ in the tab. I personally don't prefer that method as it clutters up the tab for me. If I was to want to give the levers a name and put them below the bottom string of the tab, I might use something like K1, K2, etc... with a legend at the top of each page for reference as to what the levers do.
I may have to write a book. It will be about a guy who gets so frustrated about the non-standardization of the pedal steel and tosses his guitar off a bridge. 🌉🤣🤣🤣
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 6:14 am Re: Lever naming conventions in tabs question
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| Steven Schwartz wrote: |
| Is there a standard used in tabs or do I have get used to using various systems. |
The Emmons School of Pedal Steel Guitar had its own ideas:
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 6:21 am
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| So....when IS this lever naming convention, what convention hall, and who is bringing the beer? |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 6:38 am
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...Or is the 'E', 'D', 'F' convention just a (sort of) logical follow-up to our 'A', 'B' and 'C' pedals?
To name a lever 'E' just because it happens to move the E strings (and to call a lever 'D' because it moves a string TO a 'D') is more than a little unscientific, wouldn't you say?
But then 'E9 Chromatic' is a touch unscientific, too.
On the rare occasions that I consult tab, I infinitely prefer seeing the '+' or '-' symbols - that removes any doubt and simply requires us to know, almost without conscious thought, what our pedals and knees are doing on our guitars.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 6:46 am
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To be honest, I don't think it's a massive problem as long as we call them by what they do:-
D lowers 2 to D, or lowers 9th string D, or both
E lowers Es
F raises Es to F
G My 4th lever lowers 6 and I call it G in my own tab, which is an even better name if you raise 7 to G
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 6:51 am
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Ian:
I don't think any of this is a 'problem'. It is typical, though, of the somewhat unacademic approach to theory that pervades our instrument.
Richard's earlier post describes pretty accurately how a lot of players think of the conundrum.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 7:04 am
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Well Roger, none of the naming conventions are truly "scientific". Why were the E9 pedals called A, B, and C instead of 1, 2, and 3. And why a "zero" pedal to the left of an "A" pedal (makes no sense). And I have rarely seen C6 pedals referred to as lettered names, always p5 through p8? It's all really a moot point. Just figure out what the changes are in the tab, and what pedal/lever on your guitar does that change. Simple enough.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 7:07 am
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I agree with you, Richard, but it's indicative of the steel guitar's infancy, perhaps, that its terminology is not more in line with with the general musical 'establishment'.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 7:09 am
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PS: If we'd used letters to indicate the C6th pedals, where would that leave us with our E9 lever-naming?
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 7:29 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
PS: If we'd used letters to indicate the C6th pedals, where would that leave us with our E9 lever-naming?
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True. Even the lettering of the E9 pedals is not exact. Takes us "Day" players. Not sure if you do, but every Day player I know (many) call pedal 3 our "A" pedal. It's labeled as to what it does, to be similar to what the "A" pedal does on an Emmons setup, not it's physical location on the pedal bar.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 7:35 am
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Yes.
I've learned to call pedal 3 my 'A' pedal when communicating with another player yet, almost by reflex, I'll add that 'I'm a 'Day' player, by the way', just in case there's a moment's misunderstanding.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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