PGS guitars and sustain (Franklin in particular)

Jon Voth · From: Virginia, USA

A question about guitars and their construction.

I'm on the Method, and Paul Franklin brags about the sustain of Franklin guitars, and sure enough, it delivers. He'll do runs that last forever. I can emulate his lessons but can't keep up with the sustain (I play a GFI, which I like).

Obviously his technique is part of it but my question is-

What is it in the build of a Franklin guitar that makes it do that?

Franklins seem to command a high price (deservedly so?) but what is it and why?

Thanks.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Franklin guitars are very good guitars. One reason they're priced high is that there aren't many of them around. (Scarcity of a good product always ups the price.) For the same reason, the Anapeg and wrap-around Emmons guitars are also priced high. As to what makes one guitar sustain better than another, it's really a combination of many factors. The design, the raw materials, and the way it's assembled all enter into the equation. And each of those factors also has lesser factors within, which is why not all identical guitars sound the same.

As to your own case, in general, I don't believe that the GFI guitars sustain as well as the three I mentioned above. But that doesn't mean that that's the reason you're having trouble. Your problem could be exacerbated by technique issues (vibrato, picking, volume pedal usage); equipment (what amp and volume pedal you have); or the way you have the amp set.

I've been lucky enough to have several pros play my guitars down through the years, and it's always been an eye-opening and humbling experience. If possible, I'd have other (better?) players try your rig, and see if they have the same problem.

Gene Tani · From: Pac NW

Here's some old threads, you can read about bar weight, pickup height, string gauge and how keyhead, nut fit on the deck, preamps/compressor/limiter, amp settings, running strings straight over the roller nut to tuner posts but most/a lot is in your hands

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=254060

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=205841

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=129349
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew

jay thompson · From: east peoria, il USA

Give Mike Sigler a listen, "Girl in the Glass"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhFRsf3sug8

Brandon Schafer · From: Indiana, USA

This is an interesting discussion to me because it's GFI specific. I own two Emmons guitars and a keyless GFI.

If you were to ask me which brand has better sustain, I'd quickly reply that the Emmons does. But, I don't know that I play worse when I use the GFI. I'll always keep the GFI around because it's incredibly reliable and comparatively lightweight for gigging purposes. I love both brands for very different reasons.

I once owned a Sho-Bud Pro III that sounded and sustained great, but I can't directly comment on a Franklin because I've never experienced one.

I guess what I'm getting at is that now that I think about it, I must subconsciously adjust how I work the volume pedal for each, because I don't believe my musical performance suffers due to any lack of sustain on the GFI's part.

Dan Kelly · From: Boston, MA

Jay! Great example. I can imagine that almost any well made PSG, in the hands of a pro like Mike, would sound good. Sustain, expression and all that goes into a great performance like that... well, its seat time, talent and persistence.
_________________
blah, blah, blah.
Hey You Kids! Get Off My Lawn!
blah, blah, blah.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I recently sold a D-10 Franklin that I had bought new.
I now have a GFI Ultra D-10. It will do for the little playing I'll be doing. To be truthful I haven't noticed the difference in the sustain but I do miss the Lawrence 710 pickup sustain and tone. I suspect some of the sustain in my Franklin was the Lawrence pickups.

I ordered two L710 pickups last week but no response from the company. Must still be closed because of some Los Angeles or California state restriction.

Franklin · Posted 3 Jun 2020 4:53 pm

John, I encourage you to join our private FaceBook page for these types of topics. Its available to all students in the method...I don't want you to miss daily access to me. Why I choose guitars for more sustain has been discussed. Lots of great players contribute to each students topics (All instructional topics).

In this thread already folks are guessing as to why some guitars have more sustain than others...

My story:
Listen to Buddy on his entrance to the melody in this clip. He plays two strings and never re-strikes those 5&6 strings because the PP has the sustain to hang in there without losing much volume...As a player his guitar allowed him those emotional dynamic choices due to the length of its sustain. My MSA could not do that and neither could my Sho-Bud professionals. Then when I sat behind my PP I could do exactly as Buddy does here - same hands, same pickups, same volume pedal and amp settings. The PP made it happen for me...I want the freedom to hold notes out as long as possible when that emotion is in my heart. That's why I sought out sustaining instruments. But I can play well on any instrument by accepting re-striking strings as part of what I do on that particular horn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQtU5N07rAQ

So my father and was dissecting why guitars did this and that for Sho-Bud while getting R&D ideas from Rugg, Weldon, Drake, Hicks, and whoever came into Sho-Bud. He said he was going to try to build a guitar that sounded more like the old permanent Bud's but had the sustain of the PP. He also told me he had an idea that would make my PP sustain longer...He applied all of the tricks he had discovered at Sho-Bud that were key to the PP's sustain plus he added his new idea and built the Franklin we know today. Without a bar my PP sustained a triad around 18 seconds before a note dropped out, my Bud sustained about 12 to 14 seconds.
The Franklin sustained around 20 seconds. His idea for lengthening the sustain in a PP worked.

There is nothing wrong with a GFI or Sho-Bud Professional guitars sustain. You will notice players will strike strings every bar and a half because if they go much longer a string out of the triad could die away...Gene Fields was a great friend to Dad and me.

What you hear me do has nothing to do with my hands and everything to do with the sustain of the guitar...Buddy and many others were able to complete their desires with longer sustaining instruments.

Comparing guitars is the same as comparing singing styles...One singer holds notes out forever at the ends of lines due to the pipes breathing. The other isn't concerned with that element of singing.

Both singers melt your heart. Musicians/singers should seek out dynamic differences for delivering emotion. Listen to these singers - both deliver heartfelt performances and both singers around the same age.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AHCfZTRGiI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZglwt9tPgY

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I read the time figures that Paul gave (above) for the sustain time of various brands of pedal steels. Then I listened to Buddy's rendition of Blue Jade which Paul was kind enough to post. I listened, very carefully, to the song several times, hearing what some would term the "endless sustain" exampled there. Then, curiosity got the best of me. So, I took out my stopwatch and actually timed the longest sustaining phrases in the song, including the one at the very beginning. And guess what? The longest one measured only about 6.6 seconds.

No point to be made here, other than saying that this leads me to believe that there can be quite a difference between perceived sustain and actual sustain.

Johnie King · From: Tennessee, USA

Sustain on a pedal steel is priceless!
An thatâ€™s A good reason to own a Franklin or Push pull.
Iâ€™ve had a few pro players here in Nashville come an play the steels Iâ€™ve had in the past an the first thing they do is check for sustain. I wish i knew the secret to give push pulls more sustain.

Jon Voth · From: Virginia, USA

I've dug in to the links and examples, thanks to all the replies. What caused me to ask this was learning "Together Again" from the course, as Paul does the big long slide (2nd time, well above the 12th). He keeps the melody, and my guitar just dies! Yes I can turn up more amp and use more reserve in the pedal, but for me, top strings still die out and much more string noise than I hear from Paul.

Initially thinking a thicker, heavier soundboard would be what makes a guitar sustain better but I guess there's more that that.

So wondering if I buy my own new guitar I can expect an improvement. Interesting to hear that push pulls may have an advantage. I've learned from here all pulls are better regarding maintenance and stability (better for me as a new player)?

And thanks Mr. Franklin for the reply. Lot's of insight regarding the topic. Also, I do want to benefit from the Facebook group, but really, really hate Facebook and what it does to our culture (my demon). I'll submit somehow.

And just to say, so far, in the method-I appreciate Mr. Franklin's approach is more from a musician than just a steel player.

John Goux · From: California, USA

Thanks Paul, for making it about music and not technique.
We should all aspire to have encyclopedic knowledge of music.

Good push pull guitars sing back to you. Itâ€™s not a contest about how long the notes last, but itâ€™s how that horsepower allows you to finesse and emote.

There were times learning the Bakersfield album, that I said, either Paulâ€™s guitar has unreal sustain, or that is some serious volume pedal technique.
Turns out it was both. But itâ€™s good to hear you brag about Franklinâ€™s sustain!

As for Paul Sr, I hope he is enjoying his retirement and lives forever. But when he is gone, all that acquired knowledge about steel guitars will go with him...unless he teaches it to someone. Much like fine luthiers, shouldnâ€™t he train a young Dâ€™Aquisto the tricks he has learned.?
Otherwise, we may all all be destined to spend five figures to have that kind of sustain.

As for Johnny Cash, he had lousy sustain. Questionable pitch. Didnâ€™t matter, he was still compelling. Thatâ€™s a lesson.

Iâ€™ve played 2 brands of steel that I thought had more sustain than the PP or Franklin.

ZB. I canâ€™t handle the pedal action, but Tom Brumley through a Twin Reverb, whoa. Tom sounded fantastic on any steel, but when you actually play a ZB....you hear it.

EMCI. Played some side by side with a great PP, the EMCI won for sustain. Especially in the high register. Not saying it is a better guitar. Just has longer sustain.

John

Bruce Blackburn · From: Nashville, Tennessee

Paul is a little like the Bush Beans Dog. He is guarding the family recipe. Good for you Paul! The secret is in the how, not the what. You probably donâ€™t recall but you and I talked about this specific issue many moons ago. I remember exactly what you said. Even though I didnâ€™t take an oath of secrecy, The secret is safe with me. Good for your Dad! He cracked the code. Whether by design or by accident, the result was what mattered.
_________________
Rittenberry Prestige D10, Dekley S14U, (stolen) ZumSteel D10
(2) Nashville 112's Nashville 1000, Profex II Kemper Profiler Powered, Quilter Tone Block 202, Benado Steel Dream

rick andrews · From: Westminster Co 80031

I would be very interested in seeing the results of sustainability tests of all of the current builders' guitars conducted in an unbiased process. Both in open position and somewhere above the 12th fret.

Ron Shalita · From: California, USA

you know what, just for the sake of argument maybe anyone here can explain to me why is it that BE always sounded the same on ALL the guitars that he played?
_________________
Been playing all of my life, Lead Guitar, and Pedal Steel, sing Lead and Harmony.. play other Instruments also but I hate to admit to it..

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Gregory Turner · From: Ohio, USA

Iâ€™ve owned several steel guitars. I wonâ€™t name them. But when I got my Franklina few months back, I could immediately tell a huge difference. I could play a chord then add a couple knee lever moves and could hear every note separately. And the sustain was just unbelievable. Iâ€™ve been able to do moves on it that I never could before with the note dying out or getting lost in the mix. Franklin is An amazing guitar. And Iâ€™m blessed to own one.
_________________
Franklin Pedal Steel #22
Fessenden Sd 10
Little Walter PF89
P2P Bad Dawg
400LTD
Evans Rack mount
Nashville 400
Evans Eighty (with TT-12
Strymon El Capistan
Boss GE 7

Jon Voth · From: Virginia, USA

Thanks Gregory,

For one man's perspective, whether one guitar can be superior in sustain(and only sustain)-all other things being equal. And what exactly in the build contributes to that I was curios.

And most folks would say technique is more important, which I agree with.

I may not ever be able to have a Franklin, and won't get a push-pull when I get a new guitar-maybe a Mullen or MSA-but would want it to be an improvement from my GFI Expo which is a fine guitar.

What you say about yours is what I want to experience in a new guitar vs what I am using now.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic