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Topic: Vintage sounding pedal steel pickups |
David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2021 9:42 am |
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| I'm just curious... does anyone make pedal steel pickups that sound like very early ShoBud pickups (or something similar)? Something with that bright, low output single coil sound. The early '60s sound, not an Emmons type of sound. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2021 1:47 pm
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I think you are hearing a combination of other factors other than the pickups alone.
But, if you think a Stratosphere pickup is what you want, contact Todd Clinesmith. I think he makes repros.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2021 2:14 pm
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| You can also check with Scott Swazrt here on the forum. He makes low noise single coil pickups. The reviews are good. Harry and David Jackson of Jackson steel guitars (jacksonsteelguitar.com) also make original Sho-Bud spec single coils. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2021 2:14 pm
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Take any single coil pickup that fits your guitar.. Then send it to a GOOD rewinder. Have it rewound to about 13K with a tap at about 9 K. Both vintage winds, one a little thicker sounding than the other on the same guitar.. I have been doing this for decades.. 9 K is about what the early Fenders were wound at and they sounded great.. Early ShoBuds that used the coil tap switch as well... Any pickup guy can make you what you want, just ask.. It just makes sense to add the coil tap, they charge nothing or next to nothing for the tap... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2021 2:18 pm
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Hi Chris... Yes, I'm well aware that there are many factors that go into the sound of an instrument. However, hotter pickups will always sound fatter. Lower output pickups will be brighter and have a different character to the tone. You can significantly change the sound of an electric guitar by changing the pickup. I'm sure its the same with a 10 string pedal steel.
Like I said, I'm just curious. I would think that there would be demand for that type of pickup. At the very least from owners of old steels like ShoBuds who need a replacement pickup and don't want a more modern sounding pickup -as well as people with more modern instruments who want something a little more vintage sounding.
My understanding is that Todd Clinesmith makes reproductions of Bigsby instruments from the 50s. Beautiful steels, but I don't think that's what I'm thinking of. |
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2021 2:19 pm
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| Thank you, Bob! Is there anyone you'd recommend? |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2021 4:13 pm
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I think rather than taking any pickup and rewinding it, you may be wanting a taller and skinnier coil rather than a square shaped coil or a wider than tall shaped coil.
The original Sho-Bud pickups were Stratosphere. Some of the original Emmons pickups --1963 and some in 1964 -- were Mosrite.
Here may be what you are looking for. I am rewinding two of these because they are dead.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2021 9:16 am
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Chris, thank you for that info. I think you're right about the pickup shape being the important thing.
To me, it's all about a certain type of quality to the sound. With my Fender amp, I can get plenty of treble out of any instrument I plug into it. However, dialing in the same amount of treble and bass through that amp, my pedal steel (an older BMI) sounds kind of dull on the lower strings and harsh on the higher strings – whereas a Fender lap steel sounds great.
I hear a similar quality to the tone when I hear an old ShoBud or Fender pedal steel through a tube amp. Not the same exact sound, of course, but it has a similar quality.
I have a feeling that from the early 70s onward, it was assumed that you'd be playing pedal steel though a solid state amp with a 15" speaker to get a very fat, syrupy tone – and that all pedal steel pickups were designed for that. I would think that there would be a demand for pedal steel pickups that would give a more vintage sound through a tube amp. That's really the kind of sound I'd like to be getting. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2021 11:35 am
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Personally I would try and get an original Bud pickup if it fits.. However, any good quaality single coil that fits will get you close to where you want to be, IF you send it to the right rewinder.
I am sure you can get a Bud pickup reasonably right on this forum..
Tom Brantley is the pro rewinder I have used in the past.. He's quick, very reasonably priced, and will add the coil tap for nothing, or close to it...
If you want a new pickup, I would contact the Jackson brothers from Jackson Steel Guitars, and discuss with them the sound you want.
They are the guys that know that vintage Bud sound better than anyone alive, and they still get THAT sound from their Jackson Steel guitars.. I do believe they do rewinds as well, and along with Tom, I would talk to them before doing anything else.. .. bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2021 12:52 pm
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David, I saw where Todd Clinesmith was selling repro Stratosphere pickups. I don’t think you understood. Those are the early Sho-Bud pickups you usually see with colored bathroom window flat work or impregnated linen like those I posted above. Those are Wright pickups, though. Great sounding low impedance pickups—below 2k ohms. Impedance isn’t everything.
I don’t like the sound of Sho-Buds after about the time they added a back apron. It is a matter of no longer using Stratosphere pickups and also cabinet bulk, more parts screwed into the wood and axle size and finger changes. Solid nuts and scale length too.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 13 Mar 2021 12:58 pm
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I asked Todd to make some Stratosphere pickups but he was overwhelmed with making his guitars. Since the fires destroyed his shop I’m not sure what he is doing right now.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2021 1:19 pm
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Someone asked me how a rear apron can change the sound of a Sho-Bud. It is not the rear apron alone. Early permanents can be identified by the lack of a rear apron and they share many construction elements, or more accurately, they also lack construction elements that came later.
To say I like the piercing yet full sound of an early Permanent is like my saying I thing the best sounding Emmons guitars have 24 fret fretboards.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2021 1:48 pm
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Thanks everyone for all the info. It's much appreciated!
I think the sound of the ShoBud in the clip below is about the nicest steel guitar tone I could ever imagine. I was told it was a Permanent. Obviously, I'm not going to get my steel to sound like this (and I sure can't play as well as Buddy Charleton) but I think a pickup like what's in this ShoBud might give me the characteristics I'm looking for (?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViY2WXvVXYU |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2021 5:56 pm
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Standel solid state amp. Super Custom XV
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Mel Bergman
From:
Camarillo, California, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2021 7:01 pm
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| I had not heard about Mosrite pickups being in early Emmons. Thanks for that info Chris. |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2021 9:10 pm
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| David in the clip you posted Buddy also had both necks hot which makes a difference. Harry Jackson can wind you what you need. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 14 Mar 2021 2:38 am
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The "vintage" sound in that video is mostly clipping-distortion in the recording, so no PU can sound like that on its own with normal load.
However, most PUs will get close if the load is changed and the amp is driven to clip the peaks. Today's single-coil PUs into a 1-5Mohm load (instead of the more normal 200-500Kohm load most passive VPs or buffer-amps will provide), will tend to sound as "thin" as in that video.
Add peak-clipping to taste by overdriving a (preferably tube) stage followed by an under-powered power-amp into a 12" or less speaker, and it will sound "close enough for comfort in the vintage department" to most.
I prefer a 1Mohm load on the PU myself, being it single-coil or humbucker – that is four times higher (lighter) load than what most players seem to prefer. I can always tame the highs later in the sound-chain if it sounds too "thin" or "vintage", but adding highs once they are rolled-off by too hard (low) a load on the PU is impossible. |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2021 11:48 am
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Jerry Wallace may he RIP.....
He was the best man to go to for anything single coil that you needed done...I’ve had a few of his coil tapped pickups that had 9.5 k for that vintage tone, and hit the toggle for a 12.5k more modern voicing....Fabulous guy, Fabulous work !! Sure do miss him !! |
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2021 1:56 pm
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Thanks you guys! Great info to have.
Jim, That's the perfect tone! If a new pickup could get me at least somewhat close to that I'd be very happy. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2021 5:08 pm
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Ok to but-in on some particulars. That Perm that you hearing Johnny Cox playing is fingers that are the best sounding 6061 solid aluminum with NO PIVOTed metal for raise and lowers. So that is completely different than any modern steel from 1970....On. yes the Professional's had the 6061 aluminum tops with pivoted raise and lowers and like Chris L referred to; with allllllll the stuff being screwed in to HUGE thick Maple...but still can have that old sound like I got with my single/single Sho~bud; but with the rare Bill Lawrence 610 pickups in it you can hear here>
https://youtu.be/WParxip-RJM
https://youtu.be/lvvJOrYXpRE
https://youtu.be/zPfzxwSd7yk
Also Buddy C Sho~bud has those aluminum tops and staying with Casted End plates and tail piece and keyheads and rollers...are the old sound; NOT the pickup really...but yes a more lightly wound pickup like Harry did for Johnny's Perm and my LDG I play now with 6061 aluminum tops and barrel tuning heard here>
https://youtu.be/GV9pRD641ZY
Me and Jerry Wallace worked on the perfect ohms that fit the shobud and that was his TrueTone wound 17,000 and coil tap at 11,000....
But David what pedal steel are you playing???
If you want a humbucker old sound; if you can find a Bill Lawerence 610...."NOT 710"
Or single coil pickup wound no more than 16,000 that will get any modern pedal steel close; but YOU WON'T like it cause it with have aweful overtones and whinning sound; because of ALL THE MACHINED metal on them.....YUK...ha
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2021 9:24 pm
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Hi Ricky, thanks very much for the info and those clips – lots of nice playing and tone!
My pedal steel is a BMI, and the single coil pickup in it isn't dark sounding by any means (not like modern humbuckers) – but it seems that all the sounds I really like on recordings are being played on steels with lightly wound pickups. I'm not trying to turn my instrument into something it isn't, and I don't know how much it would affect the sound by changing the pickup – I'm just curious about it. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2021 6:04 am
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No Prob Dave. If your BMI is a Double-10....switch both necks on and put a small rag over the strings of neck your not playing and have fun.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2021 1:45 pm
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Hmmm - The Emmons sound - at least on most I've heard, including my '70 push pull - *IS* a low output vintage sound, much like long=scale Fenders.
It's a fatter sound with more mids - almost a Gibson P-90 type sound, as opposed to the very bright sound of the Shobuds you mention...which is much closer to the high DC resistance, high impedance treble-heavy tone of modern steel pickups.
Regardless - contact Jerry Sentell and let him know what you want. He does a great ob of interpreting player tone descriptions.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2021 2:36 pm
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Jim, Thanks for the info!
I notice you're in Lawndale. I work in Gardena... if you ever want to get together talk about steel guitar or do a little jamming. I've read a lot of your posts on TDPRI about B Bender Teles, so I know you like the same music I do! |
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