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Topic: Preferred monitors for mixing? |
Geoff Queen
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2021 8:52 pm |
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| I’ve been doing overdubs and small singer songwriter projects from my home studio for a 5+ years now. When the pandemic hit, I started writing music and recording it all myself with hopes of releasing it in one way or another one of these days. I’m used to getting good sounds with good levels, but usually thats where my part of the project stops and I send the tracks on down the line to be used as they will by the client. What I’m faced with now is mixing full productions for the first time. I’m really enjoying the challenge, and have gone down a lot of rabbit holes in research. My goal is to eventually make radio ready mixes. Thats a long winded way to my question: If you are happy with the way your mixes translate across different speaker systems, what kind of monitors are you using? My current setup is some quality mics into a UA apollo x4, and my monitors are the JBL lsr 305’s. These jbl’s were not expensive, but I thought they sounded really good. They DO sound good, but I’m thinking that might be part of my problem. I can love a mix on the jbl’s, put it in the car and it’s all over the place. So, I’m checking mixes on phones, ear buds, and the car but would love to get closer with just monitors. I would say my budget is $1000 -$1500 for both monitors. However if you have something above that range and love them I’d love to hear about it. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 1:04 am
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It's not the speakers, it's how you listen to them.
When you have a mix you're reasonably happy with, listen to it quietly in mono on one speaker. That will tell you where the vocal should sit, both in level and perspective (reverb). It will also dictate the amount of bass and whether sounds on the edges should be brought in slightly. By these means you should end up with a radio-proof result that still makes interesting stereo.
A common mistake is to listen too loud in stereo all the time.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs
Last edited by Ian Rae on 25 Feb 2021 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Asa Brosius
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 3:14 am
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Zen advice aside, of course your speakers are important- the question wasn't how to listen to them.
I use focal alpha's sized to the room- getting that combination workable and dialed in made the biggest difference in reliable / truer / consistent mixing for me. I've been at my current setup for just over a year, and all I can say is that it beats my last setup- I'd definitely seek out professional engineers/mixers who's work you like. |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 6:26 am
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Geoff,
I am using a pair of Adam A7X monitors which sound terrific and really give me a true representation of the mix on other speakers as well.
The main key for near field monitors is to have them reasonably close to your ears; the idea is to eliminate whatever acoustic influences the room may add to the mix.
If that is not possible you could tune the room with Room EQ Wizard which would also help.
Try the positioning first. It has worked for me for years.
Here is an example of a mix that I did on this rig. I recorded the gig live and then mixed it back at home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5wYeUGZlZg
hope this helps
regards
_________________
Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 10:10 am Re: Preferred monitors for mixing?
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| Geoff Queen wrote: |
| My goal is to eventually make radio ready mixes. |
That is what I was addressing. You can recommend monitors all day but you need to know how to use them, that's all - no Zen involved. I did radio mixes for ten solid years before I went into TV and I'm passing on what I know. It's no use creating an experience that only works in one place.
If it sounds ok quiet in mono, it'll sound fantastic loud in stereo. It doesn't work the other way round.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Geoff Queen
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 11:58 am
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Ian, that's solid advice. Skill and experience will always be the biggest deciding factor. FWIW, I have been listening as you suggest: mono, soft, stereo, loud, mono headphones, stereo headphones, numerous speaker systems, basically any combination I can think of. That being said, do you have a recommendation?
Asa, the Focal Alpha is on my radar. They seem to get great reviews on sound quality. I've seen a few negative reviews on build quality; specifically mechanical noise from the bass port. Also the auto- shut off seems to bug a lot of folks. Had you had either of these experiences? Thanks for your reply.
Mark, Nice mix and playing! I've looked at the Adam X series as well, thanks for sharing this. I probably should have specified near field. because that's my situation. I made sure my JBL's were set up in the proper equilateral triangle with my mixing position. The first thing I did when I started to question their accuracy was add some additional room treatment, including a cloud. I didn't want to judge them when I knew my room needed some work. I'm sure it could be tuned further, I need to check out EQ Wizard. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 12:08 pm
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Geoff, I'm no longer in a position to recommend a particular monitor - I'm not up to date at all! I use an old pair of Chartwell LS3/5As that work well in the small room which has to suffice for my studio.
I'm sure anything that other guys on the forum suggest will be worth considering.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bob Womack
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 12:42 pm
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Nothing beats good monitors, time on a set of monitors, and shopping your mixes around to multiple systems, when you are trying to learn.
Good monitors: The monitors are your window on what is actually there on the "tape." If you can't hear a frequency range you don't know what is happening there. I am reminded of the Yamaha NS-10M period. Everyone was using them to mix at one point and there was a lot of really poor bass management going on because you simply couldn't hear what was going on below about 80hz. They also had the shrillest tweeters ever created so everyone rounded off their high end. Get a nice set of monitors, add a subwoofer, and tune the system, to make sure you are reaching down far enough.
Time on a set of monitors: The more you mix on a good set the better you know them and know what they do and what they make you do.
Shopping your mixes around to multiple systems: trial and error really teaches you a boonch. Nothing is more disappointing than to get a great mix in the studio and finding that it doesn't work on another system. Play your mixes everywhere and all those other systems will tell you what your "home" system is making you do.
And then, get experience. Mix, mix, mix. Listen, technically, to every genre you can and pay attention to the techniques used.
Good luck!
Bob
_________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring
THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (My Little Website) |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 2:38 pm
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Geoff,
You have entered a land of no return. The real stuff costs money and it is better.
_________________
Bob |
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Geoff Queen
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 3:42 pm
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Bob W, you're absolutely right about the frustration, and I have a long way to go as far as putting the time in. "Mix, mix, mix" Is excellent advice.
Bob H, I feel like I've entered that 'land' many times for different pursuits, all of them musical  Good talking with you, thanks for the call. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Geoff Queen
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 6:20 pm
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Good idea Bob H, I’m renting one of their Beyerdynamic M160’s right now. So, you know, they have all of my info  . |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 26 Feb 2021 6:27 am .
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speakers, monitors, headphones, how come they all don't sound exactly the same ? They are hi quality audio devices , capable of 50 HZ to over 20,000 hz...are they not ?
What gives ?
Well, that would be US, as Ian said.
We need to LEARN the monitors, Learn the MIX. What do we want the end result to sound like and WHERE ? The Car, Iphones, PC with 1" speakers , stereo system with Bose speakers...where ? What is our reference ? Where is our reference ? Who are we aiming at ?
I personally use the CAR for level and EQ as that's where I listen to most of my music. Next would be Headphones, not Earbuds. How do we do this, ?
its not quite that difficult but we need to know what our reference is
A general EQ mix with the nearfields, it sounds pretty good, but then I convert to an MP3 and listen in the not so expensive Headphones, how does it sound ? MAKE NOTES, does it need more this or more that, or less this and less that ? Then its back to the nearfields with the notes, make some changes then back to the MP3 and the Cans again. KEEP the notes.
After a few trips back and fourth it becomes a product. We also LEARNED what we have to do with our current nearfields to get close to what we want at our destination. More times than not its bottom end or lo mid range that needs attention. We then get acclimated to the nearfields which sound pretty good all the time. after we do this a few thousand times, WE KNOW. 
What brand of monitors ? who can say. I never found my way with M Audio 4 incher's but have found my way with Fostex 6 incher's. I stuck with the MAudios for quite a while before I gave up , the Fostex Monitors brought it home fairly soon. Moral to the story, if we are consistently fighting it, it may very well be the monitors. We don't need extreme HI END but cheap is no good either. Somewhere between not so cheap and not so expensive !
The pros behind the Boards already have their ears tuned , they know from experience
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 23 Feb 2023 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 26 Feb 2021 11:18 am
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Hey Geoff! long time... !
I ran into this video a while back that has some interesting information, also it links back to some information on one of the Pensado's Place videos that is also relevant.
I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with EVERYTHING he says, but there are some really good tips here about mixing, and I've found the 'synthetic Auratone' idea pretty useful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PnQWjtMROs
EDIT: The music in the examples ain't what we listen to but the principles apply.. LOL.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 26 Feb 2021 11:58 am
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I've spent around 85%+ of my mixing time on Yamaha NS10's since about 1982, and will never be without them. I love a nice big hifi monitor when tracking, but when it comes to mixing, I have seldom been happy with what I get on Focal/Barefoot/Genelec etc. The Yamaha's are an extremely mid forward monitor which is like a magnifying glass for all the ugliness and problems in a mix, since that's where the mix really happens.. The old saying that if you get a great sounding mix on NS10's it will translate anywhere is astonishingly true. It is a monitor that you have to learn, especially since there is little true low end, but once understood are amazing to work on.
That said, there is a really important aspect to them and that's the power amp. Many people look at the 50 watt rating on the label and try and stick to that, but wattage is what makes them come to life. I've been through just about every amp available with these, and my absolute favorite is a similar vintage amp, the Yamaha P2200. It's about 250 watts a side so you do have to be careful with it, but they become a whole new beast with it (I believe Avantone is marketing a 200w/side amp for NS10's that is inspired by the 2200). Can't say enough about the importance of the amp.
A number of years ago I paired a small 10" Yamaha sub with these, mainly so clients wouldn't freak out about the lightness off the low end. Once you're uses to them, you can tell a ton about the bass management just from watching the cones.
Definitely an acquired taste, but I wouldn't trade them for any monitor in the world...
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John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Asa Brosius
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Posted 26 Feb 2021 6:52 pm
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Geoff, to that question, all I can say is that the speakers have been issue-free two years in.
Ian, apologies- all tours cancelled, doing some severe home reno's in Nashville, and spending way too much time on building forums- when asking about a particular brand of modified thin-set I'll get conflicting essays about how to hold a trowel, novellas about problems I don't have- perhaps I'm getting too sensitive to specific questions and relevant answers. |
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Geoff Queen
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2021 11:58 pm
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Tony, I think having an idea of what your finished mix should sound like is a very good point. Taking notes, as well, sounds like great advice.
Bill! Long time indeed, hope you are well. I enjoyed that video, and the faux “horrortone†trick is pretty brilliant. I’m going to try that.
John Macy I was hoping you might chime in here. I’ve worked with several engineers who, like you, swear by the NS10s. I’m curious; do you track with the big hifi monitors for the clients benefit? Seems like no one gets their sounds on the ns10s. I wonder why that is?
Asa, thanks for that first hand info, I appreciate it. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Feb 2021 12:51 am
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Asa, I needed to learn bricklaying last summer to build a retaining wall in my back yard, and I had to watch a whole bunch of YouTube videos before I found the guy who actual knew what he was doing.
As to Tony's point about knowing what you're aiming for, during my mixing years I worked in a factory with a house style (the BBC) and I was never required to be particularly creative. I was good, but not definitely not original!
All the control rooms were fitted out to a standard spec, so decisions like monitor choice were already made.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 27 Feb 2021 6:53 am
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Bigs for tracking, though I could track all Fay on the 10’s. It’s nice to hear the low end on big speakers (if the room is accurate) and also for the client. When players come in for playback after being out in a loud tracking room, bigs are more realistic. If they want to crank them I leave the room  .
I also love Tannoy monitors and have either a 10†or 8†set along with my 10’s. I’ve also been using those since the 80’s and mate well for comparisons. Also I never mix loud at all. I watched George Massenberg mix and it was amazingly quiet. The louder you energize the room, the more you start pushing things like vocals up to compensate. The mixes translate so well to the Tannoys I can head for the lounge for some coffee if the client wants to crank it.
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John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 27 Feb 2021 7:13 am
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| John wrote: |
| Also I never mix loud at all. |
Not that I have anywhere near your experience, but I sort of gravitated to that approach at some point, and then later had the idea validated by more than one online interview with some of the heavies.. Even a lot of guys known for rock records don't mix at high levels. I just seem to have a hard time focusing on 'detail' at high levels.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Geoff Queen
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2021 1:14 pm
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| Hey John, any idea about what db level you’re mixing at? Could be an interesting survey. |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 27 Feb 2021 3:04 pm
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Around 75ish db, right around the Fletcher Munson curve. Drop down to 60ish a lot, too.
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John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 28 Feb 2021 10:11 am
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John
I’m most comfortable in that volume range too. Along with the stuff you mentioned it helps mitigate standing wave issues too.
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Bob |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 28 Feb 2021 12:51 pm
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I should have clarified, my process works for me, my home studio, my projects. I'm not a retail studio, far from it.
A retail studio, such as Johns, have parameters and "EARS" they already now what it needs to sound like. I suspect many retail studios have spent lots of time and money on selecting gear so they can capture the "SOUND" and dial it in.
My Monitors cost $300 for the pair on closeout. Fostex PM1-MK II's, 6 1/2 woofer and 1" tweeter. They are way better than what I had previously but doubt they can cover a retail studio. Plus I'm not in a Studio room, I'm in a REC Room, REC as in recreation .
I like what John says about Power Amps and believe that's a major factor overall. Perhaps most of us at home are using bi-amp powered monitors typically around 75 watts for the lo end and 45 watts for the high end . IF we push them ,they let us know we are pushing them .
Probably the biggest factor for me was improving my EQ education, especially on the lo end and mid lo's. Those alone made a huge difference in the final.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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