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Topic: Paul F’s tone on low notes |
Steve Huddleston
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2021 12:58 pm |
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| It’s not necessarily specific to Paul but I hear it on many of his recordings. The low notes (E9 neck) have almost a trebly growl which sounds great. There’s no amount of amp tweaking I can do to even get a hint of that (NV112). So I’m forced to conclude it’s one of his boxes. Does anyone know what I’m talking about and have a clue?. |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 23 Feb 2021 2:14 pm
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| I’d respectfully suggest that technique, guitar and pickup, amp and speakers come before effects pedals in this search. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2021 4:37 pm Re: Paul F’s tone on low notes
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| Steve Huddleston wrote: |
| There’s no amount of amp tweaking I can do to even get a hint of that (NV112). |
A lot of people think they need more bass on the amp to get that growl out of the lower strings, but it's the opposite. I think you get this since you correctly called it a trebley growl.
If you haven't already done this, the place to start is to turn that bass knob pretty low. And then go even lower than you think sounds good when played alone (outside of a band or mix). It will suddenly seem fuller when playing along with the band (assuming there's a bass guitar in the mix). But hopefully, some growl will remain.
Then if the part you're playing allows, move your picking hand closer to the pickup when playing those lower strings.
Also, fresh strings are a must to get that cutting tone out of the bass strings on most guitars (except for a few, like Emmons push-pulls that seem to growl no matter what). Once the tone on the wound strings starts to dull from playing-time, the growly bite goes away.
If it's still too fat after trying the above, you can try lowering the bass end of the pickup to move it further away from the strings.
None us will get Paul's tone without his mind and hands and complete rig and signal chain - along with the fine production work by the recording engineers -- but trying to get closer is a worthy goal. I love his tone. |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2021 5:55 pm
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Having the least amount of bar-hand pressure helps. Playing with too much pressure darkens the tone, at least that's how I hear it.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 24 Feb 2021 5:56 am
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"Growl" comes from over-tones interacting between two or more notes. Perfect 4ths & 5ths thus CANNOT growl.
So, tuning plays a role. Tuning-"wabble" can be tuned further away from "just-intonation" into growl.
Some growl also occurs from certain pull combinations and how much or not they are synchronized... as the "pull-in" clashes during the pull-up to tune. The lower string do that very easily. Perfectly balanced pulls can actually eliminate some of that effect.
Tuning too "justified" can sweeten the sound so much, some tensions loose their intended growl: The b7th degree is a typical and complex example. It's a minor third above the 5th and many tend to "sweet-it-in' to that interval. Minor 3rds need to be a tad sharp (not as much as Major 3rds a flattened) but as a b7th, they will loose their position if sweetened and lack the growl.
If you try mean-tone-intonation as explained by b0b here (our Forum Landlord), you find that if you use that approach, you'll have some growl standing out here and there.
I am at the point where I wish for electronic changes, instead of mechanical. So each pedal-lever combination could be set to be in-tune.
But that was not the question, so I hit the brake here and sign off... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Roy Carroll
From:
North of a Round Rock
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Posted 24 Feb 2021 6:02 am
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Here is the settings on his NV112 amp back when:
Pre 5, bass "-7", mid "-5", shift "2 o'clock", high 6, presence "-6", reverb 1 3/4, gain 5
YES that is -7 on the bass.
His hands and technique is what gives him his bass and growl.
_________________
Just north of the Weird place, south of Georgetown |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2021 6:25 am Paul F's sound on low notes
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| 12" speaker? |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 24 Feb 2021 8:17 am
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Fresh strings make a big difference.
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Bob |
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John Spaulding
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2021 10:46 am Pulling Tone
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There’s a bar pressure element to it. Here’s a brief clip from one of the PFM lessons, “Pulling Toneâ€.
Pulling Tone YouTube Clip |
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Asa Brosius
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Posted 24 Feb 2021 2:24 pm
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Just for clarification, are you maybe describing vibrato on a wound string? i.e, open up your volume pedal and add vibrato to your thickest wound/lowest without picking, or slide around on those strings. As mentioned, fresh wound strings really help.
Also maybe a sound clip- is it something like his lower registers fills in 'a little past little rock'? |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2021 2:24 pm
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| Roy Carroll wrote: |
Here is the settings on his NV112 amp back when:
Pre 5, bass "-7", mid "-5", shift "2 o'clock", high 6, presence "-6", reverb 1 3/4, gain 5
YES that is -7 on the bass.
His hands and technique is what gives him his bass and growl. |
I’m not familiar with how to use this well-known amp, but the -5 mid shifted at 2 looks like a cut at about 800k. -7 on the bass is about a quarter to 10 o’clock. I just tried something similar with a Boss Katana. It certainly is a tone that jumps right out of the speaker and into your face. I wonder if Paul used a Black Box with that setup? Also, the sound of a Franklin guitar can’t be denied it’s due in this equation. And of course, ultimately, the hands.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 24 Feb 2021 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 24 Feb 2021 4:46 pm
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| Roy Carroll wrote: |
Here is the settings on his NV112 amp back when:
Pre 5, bass "-7", mid "-5", shift "2 o'clock", high 6, presence "-6", reverb 1 3/4, gain 5 |
Just by looking at it it; he used what is known as "subtractive tone control settings with straightened treble" on that (well-known) amp. Should result in an overall linear freq-curve with lots of power available for the fundamental string frequencies, and not much power wasted on "useless" beats and sub-harmonics and "booming" lows.
Translated: with such settings I would expect that most players can get a "very clear tone with a slight raspy mid-freq growl" out of most PSGs. What they get depends on the individual player, but "lesser" players can not hide much with such settings on that particular amp. |
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Steve Huddleston
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 8:42 am
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| Thanks guys, good info here as always. I have assumed that the starting place on the amp was a ton of bass but Tucker your advice is well taken. I’m trying that in my next jam. Of course I’ll never have Paul’s hands but we can still try our best. And I knew new strings would figure in. Ugh. Time to get out the nippers. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 9:16 am
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Check out Roy's recommendation for settings on a NV112. That looks like a very good starting point for tweaking.
Don't be afraid to go extreme with those knobs, if need be -- that's what they're there for. There have been eras when my bass setting was getting pretty close to 'all the way down.' Try it out with the band (because it will sound too thin if just played solo and you may reject it). As part of this, turn up the master volume to make up for what you subtracted by sucking out all that bass energy.
These days, I run all the EQ on a NV112 closer to Roy's settings -- but with maybe a little less bass depending on the room and other musicians I'm trying to meld with.
Note that the bass knob is very touchy; you can go from too little to too much with the slightest turn, like within 1 number on the dial. You have to find that sweet spot. |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 25 Feb 2021 11:19 pm
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The amp has little to nothing to do with that “growl†in my estimation. As J.D. noted, this is largely a result of overtones and their interactions with one another. To that point, that tone may be observed in a good guitar when plucking the strings while UNPLUGGED. The amp may enhance or diminish this effect, but is most likely inconsequential in producing it.
So, Paul’s sound is indeed his own because it is produced by his hands and his mind, but his guitar is the top contender for that particular aspect of his tone. |
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Mike Holder
From:
Alabama! Home of the great “Don Helms” & his singer “Hank Williams”!
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Posted 26 Feb 2021 7:41 am Low Growl Tone
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I think everyone’s tone is in their hands, your technique changes over time as you progress in your ability to be more accurate, controlled and relaxed. The equipment you use is merely an extension of what you are working with in the first place. You can spend thousands of dollars searching in vain or thousands of hours eliminating the pain, the choice to me is simple.. it’s free to practice!
_________________
I thought Nashville was the roughest, but I know I’ve said the same about them all.
I received my education, drivin through the Nation listenin to Paul!.. ( Franklin that is! ) |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 26 Feb 2021 9:09 am
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
"Growl" comes from over-tones interacting between two or more notes. Perfect 4ths & 5ths thus CANNOT growl.
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You are making the very big assumption that the sound being discussed is not about a single string.
Other than that your definition of "growl" is not the same as how the term is commonly used at least by any players I have met. You answer does not make sense even using your own unique definition of growl. The original question is about how Paul Franklin gets "growl' in his tone. Paul tunes beats out so therefore your concept of beating tones creating growl does not apply.
_________________
Bob |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2021 10:02 am
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I listened to a solo pedal steel piece recently by an amazing player who had some of the most beautiful tone I had ever heard. I looked up some of his other videos, and the tone varied from pretty good to downright crappy. He was obviously not going through the same signal chain, or playing the same guitar. The playing was good even with the crappy tone, because great players can soldier through a tone disaster, but he sure sounded a lot better when it was more evenly balanced.
The point is, good technique is in the hands, while good tone is at least partially reliant on good equipment and knowing how to dial it in. A “growling†tone in the lower register means (to me) a sound right on the edge of breaking up, round with a ring, with a certain balance between fundamental frequencies and harmonic overtones. Playing perfect fourths and fifths would be the best way to display what I would call “growlâ€, but just about any harmony, dissonance, or single note can work well too. |
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Franklin
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Posted 26 Feb 2021 9:51 pm
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Hi Steve,
...The growl and tone I have is enhanced in solos by downward bar pressure. I control the bar pressure variances so my tone starts breathing dynamically. Kind of like a singer does...Watch this video snippet lifted from a much longer video on mastering tone using the bar. Downward bar pressure added to any string causes it to speak louder...Some call that growling.
Also notice how much downward pressure is used. I use this technique in the studio or live with the Jumpers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Yk7y-DXXfxc
Paul Franklin |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 27 Feb 2021 4:44 am
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| I don't know if it applies to this discussion or not; but, in my limited playing experience, I have noticed that different thumb picks produce different tone or timbre on the lower wound strings. |
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Steve Huddleston
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2021 7:56 am
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Thanks, all. Paul, that’s funny, I had just found that lesson right as you posted.
Growl may not be the best description but it is a single string thing. Here he is on a rocker:
https://youtu.be/8dSARFnIPzE
Real quickly at 1:26 then again at 4:55 |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 27 Feb 2021 12:53 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| J D Sauser wrote: |
"Growl" comes from over-tones interacting between two or more notes. Perfect 4ths & 5ths thus CANNOT growl.
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You are making the very big assumption that the sound being discussed is not about a single string.
Other than that your definition of "growl" is not the same as how the term is commonly used at least by any players I have met. You answer does not make sense even using your own unique definition of growl. The original question is about how Paul Franklin gets "growl' in his tone. Paul tunes beats out so therefore your concept of beating tones creating growl does not apply. |
Yes, I took the liberty to make the assumption that we are talking about growl from two strings. Most wanting to demonstrate their guitars "growl" will to on E9th an hit strings 10, 8 and 6 and slowly "mash" the pedals. And there are guitars which will do "it" more noticeably than others... key-head, no key head, freshness of strings, tuning (just, mean-tone or "440"), solidity of the guitar and materials (CAST aluminum or wood or extrusion) and evidently good hands will get you more and sloppy hands will get you less and some, I am sure that PF can "get" them with technique.
You would need an extremely "over-tony" guitar and and amp to get growl from just one string and it's natural and fed in over-tones.
Evidently, a single string, depending on it's length "South" of the nut (in the key head) may get "odd" overtones fed under the hand and bar into the ringing side and these may, create a similar effect. Bar direction can compress these overtones or depress them. When you go to the key head, a lot of energy from the key head and the back of the strings can find it's way into the ringing side. when you slide towards the bridge (changer), you get less of that.
Tuning "just"-intonation as PF does, will still be altered by bar pressure, un-consciously or very consciously, creating a spread between two strings with may get over-tones to create a "Fit" -> "growl".
Growl will not just come from the most evident "Beats" one tries to put at rest by "just"-intonation tuning. There are other over tones that will not be quiet but won't create the slow "wabble".
And yes, as with almost everything in steel guitar, everybody has different names for different things. That's why we talk so much.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Dave Campbell
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 27 Feb 2021 4:06 pm
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[quote="Georg Sørtun"]
| Roy Carroll wrote: |
Translated: with such settings I would expect that most players can get a "very clear tone with a slight raspy mid-freq growl" out of most PSGs. What they get depends on the individual player, but "lesser" players can not hide much with such settings on that particular amp. |
i don't know why i've never thought about playing with more treble this way. it makes perfect sense in my own playing; when i'm gigging a lot and have plenty of time to practice i'm pushing the treble more and more on the amp, but when i've slacked off it seems easier to play with a mellow sound (but without that presence in the bass). |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2021 11:56 am
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Following, and thanks to Paul for his generous sharing of his knowledge and tips; and to J D Sauser for more fascinating things to think about and try out.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Franklin
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Posted 2 Mar 2021 5:58 pm
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| Steve Huddleston wrote: |
Thanks, all. Paul, that’s funny, I had just found that lesson right as you posted.
Growl may not be the best description but it is a single string thing. Here he is on a rocker:
https://youtu.be/8dSARFnIPzE
Real quickly at 1:26 then again at 4:55 |
Steve,
Call it whatever tone, growl, or whatever you want...The tone in everything I play requires the bar control from that lesson. Its another layer to the
cake |
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