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Topic: favorite way to play a Dominant 7th b9? |
Dan Fries
From:
California, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 1:42 am |
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Hi folks,
I'm trying to find the best way to play a Dominant 7th chord with a flat nine on my S10 E9. So far I've come up with using the 9th string as root, lowering 8 and 4 with RKL to get the flat 2/9, then getting the b7 by pressing on pedal A with the LKV to get string 5 up a half step. I'm attaching a "bar copedent" chart I made following a model I found on this page:
https://steelguitaracademy.com/instruction/copedents/
Any easier ideas? Thank you!
- Dan
EDIT 2:
I've expanded the bar copedent chart to include voicings for chords starting on each of the 12 notes. Perhaps some of you will find it useful as I do. The colors represent levers, for reference. the numbers are scale degrees as related to the root. Each "box" is relative to the root note specified above it. I used scale degrees instead of notes to make thinking easier when the bar is up the fretboard.
EDIT 1:
Bengt's voicing is shown in red outlines on the 3rd section down. That chart shows intervals from the root, if using the 9th string as root.
Last edited by Dan Fries on 22 Feb 2021 12:33 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 7:33 am
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For a C7b9 the first place I would look is
fret 2
strings 9 6 and 5 no pedals
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Bob |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 8:05 am
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I’m sorry but I don’t understand your chart. I just look for the important intervals and voicings depending on musical function. If you just deal with 3 notes at a time that chord is all over the place.
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Bob |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 8:47 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| For a C7b9 the first place I would look is fret 2 strings 9 6 and 5 no pedals |
Agreed.
At that position you can press the A pedal for a #9, too. |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 9:07 am
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My favorite Dom7b9
Ditch the root, play half A pedal + B pedal + lower E's to Eb.
(Include 7th string in that voicing)
Raising E's to F and lowering 2nd string to D is another pretty obvious (rootless) Dom7b9.
If you want the Root as well, then you have to use strings 9 7 6 5 4 w half Aped + Bped + E's to Eb
D7b9 D F# A C Eb or R 3 5 b7 b9
3 5 b7 b9 = a full dimished voicing 
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
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Jim Kennedy
From:
Brentwood California, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 9:27 am
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Go to Tom Bradshaw's website and check out his Chord Construction book. He post's it for no charge. He explains how to play most chord options for e9 3 and 4 setup, and delves a little bit into the theory as well. A great resource, from a great resource and long time Forum member and supporter.
https://www.songwriter.com/bradshaw/
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ShoBud Pro 1, 75 Tele, 85 Yamaha SA 2000, Fender Cybertwin, |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 9:36 am
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Without the root, it's a dim7 and there are plenty of those.
Generally when a chord gets complex, the root is the first thing to ditch.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dan Fries
From:
California, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 10:02 am
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Thanks everyone - this is really helpful.
To clarify: the notes I'm most interested in voicing are 1, b9, 3, 5, b7 - in that order. I'm coming from flamenco guitar, and this voicing is fundamental in the genre. I'd like to see if I can get some flamenco harmonies going on here.
Bengt - thanks so much. That's the once voicing I'd found and had put on my chart (the 3rd one down) but I mistakenly hadn't mapped strings 6 and 3 with the B pedals. There were a couple other missed transpositions on there as well. I'll fix it. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 10:45 am
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| Quote: |
| fret 2 strings 9 6 and 5 no pedals |
Yup, gives a good partial voicing for C7b9.
For more complete voicings of that chord, I tend to use fret 1, A+B down plus E=>Eb & 5th string B=>Bb lever (or half-pedal A-pedal) strings 8 through 1, which gives a wide variety of voicings in C7b9 - 3 5 b7 b9 3 b7 3 5. The B=>Bb lever toggles string 5 between the 9th tone (out) and b9th tone (in), I use this a lot. For example, fret 3 Cmaj (A&B down) slide down through fret 2 to fret 1 while engaging E=>Eb lands on C9 and then lowering 5 a half tone into C7b9, and then off everything to the 4 chord F. Or without B=>Bb in, the A-pedal toggles string 5 between root and 9th tones.
| Quote: |
| I'm coming from flamenco guitar, ... To clarify: the notes I'm most interested in voicing are 1, b9, 3, 5, b7 - in that order. |
Makes sense, to go with the Phrygian scale. And ... that same exact pedal/lever combination {A+B + (E=>Eb) + (B=>Bb)} gives that exact C7b9 voicing at fret 10 on strings 9-6, with more voices in that chord all the way up to string 1 again.
In other words, same pedal/lever combination one minor third down, add the 9th string for the root, and you have it. In this case, the string 5 B=>Bb lower takes it from the 7th tone to b7. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 12:20 pm
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| Dan Fries wrote: |
Thanks everyone - this is really helpful.
To clarify: the notes I'm most interested in voicing are 1, b9, 3, 5, b7 - in that order. I'm coming from flamenco guitar, and this voicing is fundamental in the genre. I'd like to see if I can get some flamenco harmonies going on here.
Bengt - thanks so much. That's the once voicing I'd found and had put on my chart (the 3rd one down) but I mistakenly hadn't mapped strings 6 and 3 with the B pedals. There were a couple other missed transpositions on there as well. I'll fix it. |
Might be tricky to get those guitar voicings on the steel. First off there is a range issue.
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Bob |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 12:48 pm
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Learning...
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RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 2:33 pm
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5, 6 & 9 up 3 from root dominant position! A pedal if you want the root note.
Those 3 strings are a swiss army knife for altered voicings! |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 3:56 pm
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Following...
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E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 20 Feb 2021 7:20 pm
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If you want the root for a C7b9 try
10th fret
Strings
9. (root)
7. (3rd)
5 A pedal 1/2 step ( I use a split for that note) (Dom7th)
2 (b9)
The hard interval to find is the b9 in the right inversion. There are tons of minor 2nds
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Bob |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 8:05 am
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I concur with b0b and anyone else who suggested omitting the root. The easiest 7b9 chord is the 4-note °7 chord with the F lever. That way you have some inversion of 3-5-b7-b9 every 3 frets. I add the D lever on string 2 to voice it in the upper register.
I think the OP is really about getting the low root in there, and that limits the possibilities on E9. The root on string 9, 1/2A+B+E is the only one I know. Cool chord, but I wouldn’t call it my favorite. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 8:24 am
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Here's an example that uses the F lever a lot but leaves the root note to the bass. https://b0blee.bandcamp.com/track/alvas-occidental-melody
When I wrote the song I thought they were diminished chords, but it didn't sound right when I gave the chart to the bass player. I eventually realized that it was a circle of 5ths progression using 7b9 chords.  I rewrote the chart and that's what you hear on the record.
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 8:40 am
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| Perfect example of how the diminished 7th voicing functions as a 7b9. Cool tune, b0b. I like the A pedal adding color (upper register root?) to the chords on the intro. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 10:51 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Perfect example of how the diminished 7th voicing functions as a 7b9. Cool tune, b0b. I like the A pedal adding color (upper register root?) to the chords on the intro. |
Strings 9 7 6 5 with B pedal down, moving the A pedal. Here's the chart. All of the 7b9 chords are played with the F lever, often using the 9th string.
Click here.
Looks like I forgot to change the dim chords to 7b9 on the ending. 
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 1:21 pm
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Yeah, m9 - the Billy Robinson chord 😉
Thanks for the chart, b0b. Those changes are lovely, and big fun to play! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 1:49 pm
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A lot of people get a C note by using the "X" lever that lowers string 5 a half step along with the "A" pedal. "X" can also be used with the "C" pedal, so that it wouldn't affect string 10. Combining it with the "E Lower" lever and the "B" pedal gives you a full B7b9.
| Tab: |
1 F# high 5th
2 D# high 3rd
3 G# -> A (B pedal) high b7th
4 E -> F (C pedal + E lever) ---
5 B -> C (C pedal + X lever) b9th
6 G# -> A (B pedal) b7th
7 F# -> 5th
8 E -> D# (E lever) 3rd
9 D ---
10 B -> root |
Or you could half-pedal the "C" if you don't have "X".
Also using the "X" lever, you can put the root on the 9th string:
| Tab: |
1 F# high 3rd
2 D# b9th
3 G# -> A (B pedal) high 5th
4 E -> D# (E lever) b9th
5 B -> C (A pedal + X lever) b7th
6 G# -> A (B pedal) 5th
7 F# -> 3rd
8 E -> D# (E lever) low b9
9 D -> root
10 B -> C (A pedal + X lever) low b7 |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 4:13 pm Another X Lever position
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Maybe the half-stop raise on the B strings is essential to getting a full 7b9 chord. Here's another A+X position: (A+X)+B+F. This one uses the F lever as the root. I show the chord using flats instead of sharps, for clarity.
| Tab: |
1 F# -> Gb b9th
2 D# -> Eb b7th
3 G# -> A (B pedal) high 3rd
4 E -> F (F lever) high root
5 B -> C (A pedal + X lever) 5th
6 G# -> A (B pedal) 3rd
7 F# -> Gb low b9th
8 E -> F (F lever) root
9 D ---
10 B -> C (A pedal + X lever) low 5th |
In a way, it seems silly to raise all of the major chord strings a half step. It would be simpler to lower strings 1 and 2 instead, if there were a pedal to do that.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 4:29 pm
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If you lower your 2nd string to D along with the 9th string to C#, you can use the C# as the root of a 7b9 chord. This is how I would do it if the root was required.
| Tab: |
1 F# ---
2 D# -> D (D lever) b9th
3 G# -> high 5th
4 E -> E# (F lever) high 3rd
5 B -> b7th
6 G# -> 5th
7 F# ---
8 E -> E# (F lever) 3rd
9 D -> C# (D lever) root
10 B -> low b7
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 5:46 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
If you lower your 2nd string to D along with the 9th string to C#, you can use the C# as the root of a 7b9 chord. This is how I would do it if the root was required.
| Tab: |
1 F# ---
2 D# -> D (D lever) b9th
3 G# -> high 5th
4 E -> E# (F lever) high 3rd
5 B -> b7th
6 G# -> 5th
7 F# ---
8 E -> E# (F lever) 3rd
9 D -> C# (D lever) root
10 B -> low b7
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If you do the Sonny Landreth trick of muting behind the bar by pushing strings 1 and 7 down with your left hand fingertips so there is no contact with the bar, that is a strummable chord from string 9 to 2 that you have laid out there, b0b. It’s probably not going to happen in the heat of battle, but if you have a couple of beats in your flamenco piece to get set up for it, resquado away! |
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Dan Fries
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2021 12:17 am
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Great ideas Bob! This is a nice one - but somehow my D lever when pressed 1/2 way lowers the second string to D, but the 9th string stays on D as well - it isn't until I press the D lever all the way that 9 goes down - but then both 2 and 9 get lowered to C# - is this set up atypically? Would there be a way to get that 9th string to go down a half step with the 2nd string on the half press? I'm a true beginner on the instrument, so I'm not sure what's typical or unusual about my copedent. Tom Bradshaw set it up, and I have no doubt he did it right, but I also know there are lots of variations, and perhaps my interest in these altered chords makes a somewhat different setup better for me.
I've also been wondering whether a C6 tuning or universal tuning would lend itself better to chords like this. Any insight?
All these ideas have given me the motivation to complete my charts for chord construction. I've created "bar copedents" with quick reference for constructing chords, with scale degrees relative to having the root every possible place (string/pedal/lever combo). The colors indicate the action of each pedal, so I can quickly see how one change is going to affect the other strings.
I'm finding it useful for learning how to construct chords. I'll update the OP with the newer complete (hopefully error free) version. Obviously it's based on my copedent. Ultimately I'd love to make a little app that takes in a copedent setup, then you can feed it chord voicings, and it would find all the combos, but in the meantime this is a nice reference. Makes sense to me anyway - maybe other steel beginners with some musical experience might find it useful as well. Of course it's pretty great to get all the responses here; probably better than an app ultimately!
| b0b wrote: |
If you lower your 2nd string to D along with the 9th string to C#, you can use the C# as the root of a 7b9 chord. This is how I would do it if the root was required.
| Tab: |
1 F# ---
2 D# -> D (D lever) b9th
3 G# -> high 5th
4 E -> E# (F lever) high 3rd
5 B -> b7th
6 G# -> 5th
7 F# ---
8 E -> E# (F lever) 3rd
9 D -> C# (D lever) root
10 B -> low b7
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I'm a beginner with a
Deckley D10 |
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