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Topic: NEW MSA: What are those tinny springs in front of changer? |
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 9:14 am |
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I am still working on my final setup on my NEW-generation S12 MSA
I went from a fairly standard E9th/B6th Universal to a loaded C6th with 6P&5K
I also went from a G# (now A) o.20P then o.22P to o.22W (as I had on past guitars... it's way more stable and I feel it sounds better).
Anyways, I seem to have trouble with lowering some strings a full tone (2 semi-tones):
Top E-to-D
Middle E-to-D
The scissor goes, but I can see that the pull FINGERS stop traveling at some point, while the scissor travels further.
I DID screw out the Half-Stop-screws. Still the same.
These MSA guitars have very fast acting raises but the lowers are on the slower end. MAYBE because the quad-raise puts the lowers farther away from the fulcrum.
Yet I am looking at the bank of thin and quiet "weak" springs in FRONT of the changer (NOT the return springs), and since the are so weak and the raises really are easy, I wonder WHAT they are for. They seem to have been set at different tensions. My setup has changed, I need to know what the thinking behind is.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 9:52 am
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I would be willing to bet that they are helper springs that make the pulls easier.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 9:59 am
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| Given these location, I'd say raise assist springs.. helpful if you're raising multiple strings. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 10:05 am
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| They are indeed raise assist springs. Adjustable by pulling off the white nylon clasp and repositioning it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 10:26 am
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Given the weakness of the springs, I doubt the raise-assist theory.
I wonder if the have a re-positioning function coming back from a lower.
Raises a much easier the lowers, because on a raise, you only overcome the string tension. On a lower however you have to overcome the return spring which is stronger than the string's tensions (so the scissor stays firmly against the stop plate in "neutral" (or your open tuning will be less predictable and more capricious than a girlfriend going by the name of Crystal, Angel or Amber  )
Good to see you still around, Jon. I am still somewhat eccentric, but slowly getting into that age you suspected me to be 20 years ago! Ha!
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 11:50 am
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They are raise helpers. I had them on a 1983 Zum.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 12:12 pm
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
| They are raise helpers. I had them on a 1983 Zum. |
I know ZUM had them... and some Sho-Bud's before too. I never cared for them.
These still look like "would-be". They have no strength.
I'll await an answer from MSA.... if they are "helpers"... they will be retired.
Thanks!.. J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 2:29 pm
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Sounds like the same problem I had on my Zum years ago when I made some pull changes. Ended up the helper springs were conflicting with the lowers and pulling the raise scissor along with the longer travel of the lowering scissor. I recall dropping the tension back on those helpers to the point that they were barely functioning. So I removed them on those particular pulls. I think you're on track.
On my MSA's I replaced the original lowering tension springs with slightly lighter weight springs and it created a much lighter touch to the knee levers.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 3:15 pm
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Why not consult MSA on this? Those springs must serve a purpose that they deemed important.
_________________
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 4:12 pm
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
Sounds like the same problem I had on my Zum years ago when I made some pull changes. Ended up the helper springs were conflicting with the lowers and pulling the raise scissor along with the longer travel of the lowering scissor. I recall dropping the tension back on those helpers to the point that they were barely functioning. So I removed them on those particular pulls. I think you're on track.
On my MSA's I replaced the original lowering tension springs with slightly lighter weight springs and it created a much lighter touch to the knee levers. |
That's what I just did a few hours ago.
I think ya'lls may turn out to be right, they are just "helper"-springs.
I released the tension to the minimum and got a few cents closer to the drop I tried to achieve.
HA!. ... Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 4:13 pm
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| K Maul wrote: |
| Why not consult MSA on this? Those springs must serve a purpose that they deemed important. |
I did write today to MSA... but it's Sunday.
So... in search of instant gratification... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 4:15 pm
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J.D.,
Those are indeed helper or “Tension Balance†springs. Their intended purpose is to balance the resistance between two or more raise pulls of differing tension, such as the 3rd and 6th string raises. That being said, they will impede the lowering of more than a half step on most strings, and from my( albeit limited) experience they make no little to no difference on the raises. There is certainly no harm in removing them, functional lowers are much more important I would think. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Feb 2021 4:19 pm
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| Kelcey ONeil wrote: |
J.D.,
Those are indeed helper or “Tension Balance†springs. Their intended purpose is to balance the resistance between two or more raise pulls of differing tension, such as the 3rd and 6th string raises. That being said, they will impede the lowering of more than a half step on most strings, and from my( albeit limited) experience they make no little to no difference on the raises. There is certainly no harm in removing them, functional lowers are much more important I would think. |
Thank you Sir.
In that case they will find themselves EVICTED... with prejudice!
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 22 Feb 2021 3:06 am
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My Franklin had them.
Regarding removing them, "If it ain't broke don't fix it". |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 22 Feb 2021 9:32 am
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| Like Dennls, my Zum had them. They made the pedal action too light and interfered with long lowers. I slackened or removed most of the raise-helper springs and was much happiner. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 22 Feb 2021 1:39 pm
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Now I remember! I added the two G#'s to F#'s (6th & 10th strings) knee lever on my U-12. I had to remove the helpers to get them to lower the full distance.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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