Telonics pickup pole adjustments?

Ray Mitchell · From: San Diego, California, USA

Hello,

I recently installed a new Telonics Type 128 12-string pickup on my 1978 MSA Classic XL steel and also purchased a Telonics volume pedal to go along with it. With this combination the improvement in sound quality over the stock MSA SuperSustain pickup is like night and day.

The 128 pickup and its 10-string counterpart, the Type 84, have two individually adjustable pole pieces for each string. According to the recommended adjustment procedure (http://www.john-lemay.com/pu_manual.pdf) all poles should initially be set to the same height and the overall pickup height should be set so there is a clearance of about 0.120" - 0.188" between each pole and its corresponding string. Then the pole pair for each string should be turned the same amount in the same direction as necessary to balance the volume of all strings. Finally, the instructions say to proceed string-at-a-time, carefully adjusting the poles in opposite directions 1/2 turn at a time until a "bell" sound is achieved on the higher strings and a "growl" sound is achieved on the lower strings.

It is this last adjustment that I have a problem with. No matter how much I turn the poles in opposite directions I cannot detect any significant change in tone or quality on any string. I've done this in a quiet room using two different high quality amplifiers (a Peavy Session 500 as well as a Carvin with 2ea. JBL K120s) but I simply cannot hear any difference as the adjustment proceeds. I started out with a 0.120" overall balanced string-to-pole distance, then tried 0.188". Have any of you Telonics pickup users actually gotten this to work properly? How many turns of each pole did you have to make before the "sweet spot" was reached? Although I'm very happy with the sound I'm getting without doing any of these fine adjustments, I would certainly like to make it even better if possible.

Thanks,
Ray

Dave Bertoncini · From: Sun City West, Arizona USA

Ray
Yes this does work, but is subtle and worth spending the time doing. Maybe your ears were tired when you did it? Did you keep track of where your balanced sound was? If so I would suggest going back to that point and try when your hearing is fresh, one string at a time as described. Also set your amp for a flat response when you are adjusting.
Dave

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

On my three steels with type 84 pickups, I got pretty much there by just staggering the poles (10-string steel) in increasing order from the 5th string- that gets you into the right range, and any further adjustment is gravy...
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Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Ray Mitchell · From: San Diego, California, USA

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

I've got the 84 on my Mullen and puts the single coil to shame in my book. It did take me a couple weeks to get adjusted but once I did, it works perfect. I adjusted mine while playing live on stage by hearing the differences and did wind up with a couple of them staggered. I now have the strings even sounding with good tone. I was always having trouble with the 3rd and the top string not as loud as the others but got them even now.
Great pickup
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Well...I'll say I heard a difference, and when I messed around with a single string with poles at very different heights it was more obvious....but as to getting the whole thing right, I was having trouble hearing small changes, so I just interpolated from the few strings I had messed with a lot, and it seems fine.
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Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

It's always a good idea to start out with new strings as well ... just remember to be patient and take your time and the results will happen Very Happy

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14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases.

Justin Griffith · From: Taylor, Texas, USA

Ray,
You have gotten great advice above.

The only thing I can add is try to adjust the pickup without your volume pedal, or set your pedal (hooked up) off to the side so you don't bump it. Fresh strings, a well tuned guitar, and rested ears all helped me. It really takes some time hitting the same string and tweaking, repeat, repeat, etc.
After I got the string volume where I wanted it, I just started unbalancing the poles to get what I wanted. I did not worry myself trying to keep them "balanced". Once you find the sweet spot, you will hear it.

I will say it is very much worth the effort to get it right.

Mine sounded so good out of the box, I hated to mess with it, but I am glad I took the time. Over the last few months it just gets better and better. I still make very small adjustments now and then. The Telonics folks have really built us another winner!

I just love that single coil sound without the inconveniences a single coil can cause.

If you are not able to get everything you want from that pickup. I'd call Mr. Dave Beaty and have a chat. He will bend over backwards to make sure you are pleased.

Good luck!
Justin
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Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal

Tab Tabscott · From: Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.

For a guy thats staggered around a fair bit, I don't know what staggering means when setting your pole pieces. THanks in advance my brothers (and sisters)!
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Tab Tabscott

Play nice.

They is none else.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

setting them at different heights to compensate for the more/less powerful ones so that they all sound equal in volume
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Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Yes, it is tedious and time consuming. I have two indentical U-12 MSA's except for color. One has the 427 pickup. The other is X-12. I used a match book cover to pick lightly and evenly on each string for volume balance. Then put my picks on and adjusted a little more to fine tune volume balance. The tone adjustments took longer. I basically got a softer tone from the plain strings and more bite from the wound strings to balance the tone between the plains and wounds. After playing it for a several weeks, I made a few more minor adjustments a couple of times. Then, once more, I adjusted the 5 and 6th string for slightly more bite. The 1st and 3rd strings were more drastic settings for tone. Time and patience. When you think you initially got it where you want it, you probably don't and will tweak it for a few months.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

After tweeting the 84 over a couple days it was worth following the instructions and going back and starting over...great balance once done .. ended up looking like this. (9=B, 10=E).. Very Happy

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Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side

Mitch Adelman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

The poles on mine have seized up and I can't turn them. Snapped Allen wrench so I quit so I would do no damage. When I first got the pickup I adjusted it but days of tweaking are over. Maybe a drop Tri -flo on poles might loosen them up because i would like to tweak a bit again after many years

Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

Mitch, I would contact Telonics...they are great to work with.. Very Happy

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Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Mitch: I had some poles that seized on my 427. Telonics replaced it. It was something that they forgot to do that caused it.

Larry: mine look nearly the opposite of your pole settings. My plain strings have the row of poles higher farthest from the changer to mellow out the tone. The row of poles nearest to the changer on the wound strings are higher to give the wounds a little more bite. Maybe I'm seeing the picture wrong?
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Hold everything! You're left handed! Whoa!

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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

Dennis...righty here!...I had my poles like yours and kept readjusting , originally set it up in my studio but on the gig. (loud band) it sounded off...sooooo..I went back , cranked up the studio volume and reset them to get the tone I like, NYXL, .054, .038, on the bottom, E9 on top....I always used Billâ€™s 710â€™s to compare to.... also using Telonics VP, NV112 with Eminence Texas Heat, 4ohm, 150W..Excel guitars..as a retired guy thereâ€™s always something in the steel room to fiddle with Very Happy

Larry
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Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side

Mitch Adelman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Thanks Dennis. Dave offered to replace the seized poles at no charge or shipping. The early model pickups had a few batches where the pole pieces didn't come coated from the manufacturer and they seized over time. Great service at Telonics as we all know.

Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

Dennis hereâ€™s another set up on an old Excel....I first thought they could be the same, same strings, etc,..but doesnâ€™t seem to work that way. Shocked

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Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Is the Exel Telonics pickup also an 84?
I have identical MSA guitars. The 427 vs the X-12 adjustments were only slightly different. The 427 has a little more body to the tone. X-12 leans more toward the bell tone of the Emmons guitar. Each requiring a little different pole settings.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

I have 3 84s...they are fine but the BL710â€™s were no-brainers!! Very Happy

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Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side

Dave Beaty · From: Mesa, Arizona, USA

The gauss field on Telonics pickups is much higher than many other pickups. As a result, musicians who are accustomed to a certain (historical) distance from the top of the poles to the bottom of the strings tend to install their new Telonics pickups with the same spacing. As a general rule, that is a mistake which reduces the effect of pole adjustment.

For the sake of discussion, consider that there is a defined magnetic field emanating upward from each pole to the string directly above it. If the top of the pole is so close to the string that the string is in the very strong portion of the pole's magnetic field such that moving it does not significantly change the strength/gauss field through which the string passes, you will hear little or no effect as a result of the pole change.
In short, it is then too close to the string to result in a meaningful effect as it is adjusted.

The idea is to drop the entire pickup lower into the pickup pocket (further away from the strings), sufficiently to place the string 'just' into the top edge of the pole's magnetic field. THEN. when the pole is adjusted, the result will be a significant change in the magnetic field strength at the string, which results in a more significant change in the tonal quality as the pole is adjusted.

In most cases, the most desirable distance between the top of poles (as shipped from our laboratories) to the bottom of the string is 0.20 inches.
Note also that the pole pieces are normally set 1.5-2 turns out from flush with the top surface of the pickup. So if you are starting over, make sure you turn the pole downward until it is flush with the top surface, then turn it 1.5-2 turns out (counterclockwise), and THEN measure from the top of the pole to the string, and it should be 0.20 inches away from the string. If your distance is less than that, adjusting the pole will have less effect than it should.

Early pickups such as the 34, 84, 128, 151, 186, 187, 274, 275, 409, 427, 610 and others were generally used with less separation, BUT for the more discriminating user, they needed a little more separation from the strings. (The X10 and X12 pickups currently in production must be 0.20" to work properly.

Note that I said "tonal quality", not simply "tone". While some amount of "tone" variation is often noted, the "tonal character" might be a better adjective to use - due to the fact that the two poles under a given string are "looking up" at different nodal areas on the string, so complex overtones necessarily come into play. Poles closest the changer tend to control the "bite" of the note, while the poles farthest from the changer tend to add a fuller/more mellow quality. As a general rule, players tend to prefer adding "bite" to the lower strings (some call this a barbed-wire fence or "push-pull" sound), while greatly reducing the changer-side qualities of the poles on the higher strings. This translates to running the changer-side poles for the lower/fatter strings higher (closer to the string), and lowering the changer side poles for the higher/smaller strings to reduce excessive high "eeek" sounds on the 3rd and other small/high strings - particularly when playing up in "Hughey-Land".

When adjusting for tonal quality (not volume), remember also to always "rock" the two poles under a given string. i.e., if you lower one pole an amount, raise the other pole the same amount. Moving them in increment of 1 turn is initially recommended, 1/2 turn for fine adjustment over the next few days of weeks while playing regularly.

If you wish to change the volume only of a given string, move BOTH poles up or down equally. If you have previously adjusted for tonal quality, maintain that same tonal quality by raising or lowering both poles the same amount - without changing their relationship to each other as determined by the previous tonal adjustment.

I probably forgot something as I have no notes handy - if so please accept my apologies and contact Sophie to get more specific information on special cases. Hopefully this will get you going with more consistent results. David Hartley quickly worked out a similar approach in one of his old videos if you search for it.

...getting late, headed for the barn now....

Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

Thank you DAVE!! I finally got it right .. Very Happy

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Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side

Dave Beaty · From: Mesa, Arizona, USA

Congratulations Larry, you nailed it!
The adjustments you made, as shown in the above photo, are right on the money/just what we would expect with your guitar. You have provided an increasing amount of bite to the lower strings and eased off on the bite while bringing up the smoother quality on the high strings, graduating downward on the four highest strings.
Nice work indeed!

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