| Author |
Topic: Beginner's question - A pedal + LKR lever |
Travis Bubenik
From:
Marfa, Texas
|
Posted 26 Jan 2021 7:36 pm |
|
Hey friends - total beginner's question here for y'all:
I'm having just a really rough time being physically able to play the A pedal and LKR lever at the same time. It's always quite the strain on my leg to do it, and I have a hard time not letting up on the A pedal while fully engaging the knee lever.
Is this normal for a beginner? Maybe just a typically hard fundamental that'll get easier? Or perhaps my LKR lever is traveling farther than it should? (I also unfortunately have a flat left foot that naturally rolls too far inward - so it might just be a physical limitation I have to work through.)
Sorry if that's all too vague - just wondering if it's just me, or if this is a thing beginners tend to struggle with, or if I've got a mechanical setup problem. Appreciate any advice y'all can offer. |
|
|
 |
Larry Hobson
From:
Valley Grande (Selma) Al USA
|
Posted 26 Jan 2021 8:02 pm Knee lever
|
|
| Don't know for sure but it might be the assignment of the lever pulls.You could check other copedants on this forum to see if you many need to modify your lever assignmens. Just saying. |
|
|
|
Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
|
Posted 26 Jan 2021 8:30 pm
|
|
What does your LKR do? I'm guessing it raises the Es a half tone. And I'm guessing that your floor pedals are standard Emmons configuration so the A floor pedal is the furthest to the left.
If I'm correct, your setup is less than ideal. It is fairly difficult for anyone to play the A floor pedal and the LKR together.
It would be helpful for you to give us your whole copedent (pedal and lever setup).
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
|
|
|
Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
|
Posted 26 Jan 2021 9:27 pm
|
|
Are your pedals set up A-B-C or C-B-A, Not stated in post???
Is your guitar is set up DAY SETUP C-B-A Pedals, LKL Lower E's 4-8 referred to as D knee lever, LKR Raises E's 4-8 referred to as F knee lever?
When you engage just the A Pedal and LKR it should be a smooth roll of your foot to right and knee right together at same time. Bar up 3 frets another 1st chord. Or Roll your foot Left, Engage the B Pedal and engage LKL lever for a 7th chord.
I have seen a couple guitars that someone thinking they was a Steel Guitar Mechanic had changed the pedals, From Emmons' Setup A-B-C to Day Set up C-B-A. Or From Day Setup To Emmons' Setup. But did not change the Knee Levers. This puts your leg in a bad bind, Rolling your foot one way and your knee in the opposite direction, At the same time to make the changes.
If the Pedals and Knee Levers are set up proper and for some physical reason you can not operate the A-B pedals and F and D Knee levers with your left foot. You may want to change 1 or both E change knee Levers to your Right Knee, Like Jeff Newman's 12 string Universal Setup.
Good Luck in getting your guitar setup for you and Happy Steelin |
|
|
|
Travis Bubenik
From:
Marfa, Texas
|
Posted 26 Jan 2021 9:31 pm
|
|
It's a Carter Starter (E9 tuning) - so the knee lever I'm talking about is second from the left, lowers E to Eb.
Here's the copedent (pulled from another thread on this forum - thanks for the heads up on that!)
I guess it makes sense that playing the A pedal + that knee lever is just tough no matter what - but some of the very first songs/exercises in the instructional book I'm using (that classic Bill Keith one) use that combination, so I was just kind of thinking - man, why is this so tough for beginner stuff! What am I doing wrong? But I suppose that's how it goes with this beast of an instrument, hah. |
|
|
|
Richard Alderson
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 26 Jan 2021 9:53 pm
|
|
Dear Travis - Thanks for sharing your experience. Pedal steel takes hand sensitivity and also leg and feet sensitivity. This is something you develop over time. I need to use moccasins when I play, and I feel clumsy and I just can't play as well if I forget my moccasins and I have to wear street shoes. The A pedal and E flat lever combination you are talking about does not seem quite correct, its probably both A&B pedals together with the E flat lever you are talking about. Otherwise the A pedal and F lever is a basic combo, or B pedal and E flat lever. Mickey Adams has some great comments about how to practice certain maneuvers over and over in his video called "3 Moves to Master". How long does it take to develop foot and leg dexterity sensitive enough that you can play beautiful music with your feet? Answer ... years. Also your feet can become tired during your first year, and won't be so tired in the second year, as you develop muscle patterns and muscle memory. So even if you have the perfect guitar with perfect ergonomic levers, in your first year of playing, I would still expect that your feet can feel funny or tired, or awkward.
PS - I call the LKL the F lever, and the LKR the E flat lever, which is how I learned to name them, since the F lever raises the E to F, and the E flat lever lowers your E's to D# or E flat.
_________________
Derby SD-10 5x6; GFI S-10 5x5; GFI S-10 5x5; Zum D-10 8x7; Zum D-10 9x9; Fender 400; Fender Rumble 200; Nashville 400; Telonics TCA-500.
Last edited by Richard Alderson on 31 Jan 2021 7:55 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
|
|
Travis Bubenik
From:
Marfa, Texas
|
Posted 26 Jan 2021 10:02 pm
|
|
| Thanks Richard! Makes me feel better knowing it's a basic combo that'll get easier with time and practice. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't totally missing something or had something setup horribly wrong. Much appreciated. |
|
|
|
Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 2:24 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| some of the very first songs/exercises in the instructional book I'm using (that classic Bill Keith one) use that combination |
Is there any chance that the B pedal also might be pressed, but not written or played in that example ? That would be a more typical combination than just A pedal and LKR.
Rolling your foot from .....
A to A+B to A+B+LKR to B+LKR to LKR by itself, would be quite normal, one way or the other without too much trouble.
Would be interesting to see a snapshot picture of the actual passage to see exactly what the idea is and why such a combination of A pedal and LKR has been chosen.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 |
|
|
|
Danny Letz
From:
Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 4:22 am
|
|
| The LKR right on a Carter Starter has very long travel. That may be your problem. Not saying you can’t learn to use it but try to get someone to let you sit at a pro grade guitar & I think you will see what I mean. It may be adding to your physical problems. |
|
|
|
Danny Letz
From:
Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 4:50 am
|
|
| Also you can adjust the height of one floor pedal in relation to the others where the quick coupler at the pedal threads on the rod. Maybe raise your A pedal in relation to the B. But be aware that I have seen some Starters with parts bent underneath from someone pushing the pedals to hard. This can cause a pedal to be too close to the floor & the adjustment used up. That’s not terrible hard to fix but takes a little steel guitar mechanical ability. |
|
|
|
Travis Bubenik
From:
Marfa, Texas
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 6:57 am
|
|
| Danny Letz wrote: |
| Also you can adjust the height of one floor pedal in relation to the others where the quick coupler at the pedal threads on the rod. Maybe raise your A pedal in relation to the B. But be aware that I have seen some Starters with parts bent underneath from someone pushing the pedals to hard. This can cause a pedal to be too close to the floor & the adjustment used up. That’s not terrible hard to fix but takes a little steel guitar mechanical ability. |
Oh wow thanks! I just tried raising the A pedal height a bit and yea, definitely making it a lot easier. Think I'll have to tinker with it to get it just right, but I can already tell the difference. Honestly didn't even know about adjusting pedal heights 'til your comment, so thanks very much! |
|
|
|
K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 7:29 am
|
|
Yes these mechanical things are all part of learning how to play this machine. Your hands and feet will get tired but practice builds muscle strength, muscle memory and flexibility. You have to expect a learning curve both mentally and physically.
_________________
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
|
|
|
Brian Hollands
From:
Geneva, FL USA
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 7:35 am
|
|
| Travis Bubenik wrote: |
| but some of the very first songs/exercises in the instructional book I'm using (that classic Bill Keith one) use that combination, so I was just kind of thinking - man, why is this so tough for beginner stuff! What am I doing wrong? |
If you're talking about the first bar if Red River Valley, you're not playing string 3 or 6 when you lower the E string so you can be stepping on both the A and B pedal when you engage the knee lever. It makes no difference to what you're playing.
_________________
'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's |
|
|
|
Travis Bubenik
From:
Marfa, Texas
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 8:17 am
|
|
| Brian Hollands wrote: |
| Travis Bubenik wrote: |
| but some of the very first songs/exercises in the instructional book I'm using (that classic Bill Keith one) use that combination, so I was just kind of thinking - man, why is this so tough for beginner stuff! What am I doing wrong? |
If you're talking about the first bar if Red River Valley, you're not playing string 3 or 6 when you lower the E string so you can be stepping on both the A and B pedal when you engage the knee lever. It makes no difference to what you're playing. |
Hah yep that’s exactly the one. And yes I am stepping on both but even then it was tough - but from everything I gather here it’s mostly just a normal toughness that I gotta work on. |
|
|
|
William Carter
From:
Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 8:30 am
|
|
Are you sitting in the dead center of the instrument or shifted toward the right? Something simple like shifting right can improve things a lot.
_________________
_________________
ZumSteel D10, Mullen G2 SD12 Universal, Rittenberry SD10 |
|
|
|
Travis Bubenik
From:
Marfa, Texas
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 10:26 am
|
|
| William Carter wrote: |
| Are you sitting in the dead center of the instrument or shifted toward the right? Something simple like shifting right can improve things a lot. |
I'll give that a try as well - thanks! |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 11:12 am
|
|
I remember having trouble with that move too. My left thigh actually got sore from practicing it. The suggestions to pedal AB together with LKR are fine and do make it easier, but later on in the Winston/Keith book you will be asked very specifically to do A+E lower without the B pedal, followed immediately with an AB and releasing the lever. With E lower on LKR, you may have to get very creative physically on how to accomplish that.
Taken at face value, a good portion of the material in the book is a bit beyond beginner level, including that first version of Red River Valley. I ended up treating it as a series of exercises to work on individually, and eventually pieced the song together. Following that approach to all of the subsequent tunes, the book is a gold mine. I’m in year 5 and I still refer back to it for review. |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 27 Jan 2021 9:40 pm
|
|
That's not the most comfortable combination.
Sometimes the A pedal is down and the E lever is an afterthought.
For example
C#m to C#m9....
Sometimes the E lever is engaged and the A pedal is an afterthought.
Such as
B6 to B6add9
In my experience, irs always a bit awkward but with time it becomes more manageable. |
|
|
|
