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Topic: Effects for better tone |
Craig Woloshin
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2021 12:14 pm |
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Hey All...Im trying to enhance my tone for recording and playing live.Any suggestions would help!! Im playing a Zum encore and running thru a Quilter Steelaire Amp (not the rack mount) the only effects I use is a boss delay pedal...I like the sound of the quilter but Im still lacking that really warm country tone....it sounds thin when i play and record....Im looking for advice on any EQ or compression/enhancers that will help me obtain that warm tone....more of that beautiful clean crying steel!! Thanks
Craig |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2021 1:58 pm
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| Craig - Steve Lipsey beat me to it in recommending a Black Box. A Black Box has improved the tone of every solid state amp I have played through. Of course, tone is extremely subjective. Aside from that, it's a little difficult to provide much detail without knowing what your Steelaire settings are. I found that a major factor in dialing Steelaire tone is balancing the Hi-Mid and Lo-Mid settings. If you want a warmer tone, try turning the Lo-Mid up and the Hi-Mid down. Try setting the Hi-Mid at 1 and the Lo-Mid around 4 for starters. The Reverb Tone setting also affects the overall tone. There is a relationship there, and it can be a delicate balance. You might still have to tweak the Bass and Treble. One feature I like about Quilters is that I can hear a difference with every click of the knob. It can take some tinkering and patience. It's too time consuming for some but it's worth it....and tone is extremely subjective, of course. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 22 Jan 2021 2:46 pm
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| I've got a few Quilters but not a Steelaire. Consider that one of the big things about Quilter is how it simulates (or was designed to....) tube behavior. So if you want to fatten up your tone, consider turning the gain pretty high, use the limiter to control distortion, and use the master to control output volume. This should fatten and broaden the sound some. |
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Jeremy Reeves
From:
Chatham, IL, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2021 2:59 pm
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| I’d suggest trying a buffer or eq pedal. Also I’ve been surprised how much cables can affect tone as well. |
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2021 5:59 pm
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| I've got a few Quilters but not a Steelaire. Consider that one of the big things about Quilter is how it simulates (or was designed to....) tube behavior. So if you want to fatten up your tone, consider turning the gain pretty high, use the limiter to control distortion, and use the master to control output volume. This should fatten and broaden the sound some. |
What model of quilter are you using Jon ? |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 22 Jan 2021 6:19 pm
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| Greg -- my first was a Pro Block 200 head but I started gigging a lot and decided that I really wanted a combo for load-in ease. The MicroPro Mach2 12HD served me really well for a couple of years. Now I've gotten restless and I have a new 202 Travis Toy combo. Who knows when I'll be able to gig it. I'm still evaluating it....too soon to say. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 22 Jan 2021 8:05 pm
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If you post an example of your playing it would help people understand what to suggest. With absolutely no knowledge of your playing my first thought is how and where you pick the string. You might play great already so a blackbox might enhance your tone. If you don't already play pretty well any equipment changes are only a distraction from the work you need to do.
_________________
Bob |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 23 Jan 2021 2:48 pm
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Is the encore stock? I'm aiming to put in a Scott Swartz Z-style pickup into Boss LMB3 into Hilton volume pedal into tube head to a lot of cabs. It's got a 705 right now great pickup but that one's a little too tall for the cavity.
Other thoughts: how are you miking cab, and you could ask Doug Earnest.
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Ake Banksell
From:
Stockholm, Sweden
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 5:38 am
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I had an Encore here last week with a Truetone single coil. It sounded excellent. I would consider it totally up to the task, live or recorded. Don't know if the pickup is after-market or an option from Doug (when Jerry was still with us).
Later this morning someone is bringing another Encore over. I will be interested in what pickup it's got and I'll report my observations, if any. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 7:14 am
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| Jon wrote: |
| consider turning the gain pretty high, use the limiter to control distortion, and use the master to control output volume. This should fatten and broaden the sound some. |
I do that, and it works a lot better for me. I also set the channel input selector Mode to 1+2 and use both channel gains up around 2 o'clock, i.e. lots of input gain, and then set the master around 9 o'clock to start. I adjust stage voulume with the master, depending on how loud the band is. I never touch the input gains in the course of a gig (back when I had gigs) just the Master. I know some other Quilter owners that do the same thing, it's not just me.  I personally have the Limiter totally off, I never could make it work without killing all the 'life', but to be honest, I've never messed with it much.
As Jon mentioned, it's not to the point of audible distortion (your gain may need to be adjusted to your guitar and style) but it definitely gives a bit more of that tube 'fat' or 'sag' that a lot of folks like, and to my ears a bit warmer tone.
| Jim wrote: |
| I found that a major factor in dialing Steelaire tone is balancing the Hi-Mid and Lo-Mid settings. |
I totally agree, and I'll add that those controls are VERY sensitive to my ears, adjust very gradually or you can go right past 'your tone' if you're not careful.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Kenneth Kotsay
From:
Davie/Ft Lauderdale, Florida
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 9:47 am
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Crag, Albert Svendelvil (spelling) posted his video on the Forum, months ago, demonstrating his Steelaire amp and the settings he was using, he sounds awesome using this amp. I don't have the Forum date it was posted but do a search and you'll find it, better yet do a Youtube search you might be able to find it also.
I own a new Steelaire plus 5 other amps, and yes I got the same thinness using both a Franklin and a new MSA with the Steelaire, had to tinker with for a week or two, got a good sound but I'm still searching for that right, "knock out of the ball park" sound.
I also own the Black Box but I haven't use it on the Steelaire, only on a NASH 112. It improved the sound, but again I'm always search for a much better sound/tone.
One other major problem that will occur regarding the sound of one's amp is your hearing loss, I often wonder if my age and the slow loss of my hearing plays into how I'm hearing theses days, I'm 72 and I do have a small hearing loss, I don't need to wear a hearing aid yet. I do notice I have to turn up the TV, CD player, my steel tracks etc.
Still in Davie?
Last edited by Kenneth Kotsay on 24 Jan 2021 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 9:53 am
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| Bill Terry wrote: |
| Jon wrote: |
| consider turning the gain pretty high, use the limiter to control distortion, and use the master to control output volume. This should fatten and broaden the sound some. |
I do that, and it works a lot better for me. I also set the channel input selector Mode to 1+2 and use both channel gains up around 2 o'clock, i.e. lots of input gain, and then set the master around 9 o'clock to start. I adjust stage voulume with the master, depending on how loud the band is. I never touch the input gains in the course of a gig (back when I had gigs) just the Master. I know some other Quilter owners that do the same thing, it's not just me. I personally have the Limiter totally off, I never could make it work without killing all the 'life', but to be honest, I've never messed with it much.
As Jon mentioned, it's not to the point of audible distortion (your gain may need to be adjusted to your guitar and style) but it definitely gives a bit more of that tube 'fat' or 'sag' that a lot of folks like, and to my ears a bit warmer tone.
| Jim wrote: |
| I found that a major factor in dialing Steelaire tone is balancing the Hi-Mid and Lo-Mid settings. |
I totally agree, and I'll add that those controls are VERY sensitive to my ears, adjust very gradually or you can go right past 'your tone' if you're not careful. |
Jon and Bill made some good points. Because of the way Gain affects tone in most amplifiers, I usually think of it as adding overdrive or distortion. That isn't true with Quilter's Steelaire and Tone Block 202 amps. I find that these amps react to increased Gain just as Bill said. It actually adds more tube-ish responsiveness. I say, "ish" because even though Quilters are the most "tubey" sounding solid state amps I've tried, the 202 more so than the Steelaire, they still don't fully replicate the sound or responsiveness of tubes. I'm not knocking them, and I'm a "tube guy", but if ever I start playing out again, I'll take the 202. It's the one I play through most often at home, and I still use a Black Box in front of it.
I don't set the Limiter very high, but I do use it to help smooth or balance the highs and Gain. I generally don't set it above 9:00 o'clock or so. Like Bill said, it is very sensitive. It might also have the most subtle effect of all the Steelaire and 202 settings. |
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Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 10:00 am
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Coming from a hopeless gear addict, so I’m a horrible one to give this advice. Before spending any money:
If you can, try your rig through some other gear first, and determine what difference it makes, if any. If it’s not dramatic, hang on to your dough a bit longer. One thing for sure, whatever the latest and greatest is today, something “better†will come out tomorrow.
Have someone else, preferably whose tone you admire, play your rig as is.With COVID and the obscurity of our instrument, this may be a challenge, but it’s free.
I gigged with a Steelaire and didn’t have a problem with it. Albert Svendall sounded fantastic through his at the Dallas show.
We seldom get the chance to hear our rig played by someone else, in a gig setting. I’ve had that happen only once. Turns out the weak link in my signal chain was me. It didn’t stop me from spending a fortune on stuff, but it gave me a better perspective. |
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Kenneth Kotsay
From:
Davie/Ft Lauderdale, Florida
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 10:21 am
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Steve your on target, I'm going to try it with my electric solid body, made in China guitar, see how it performs with an a non steel guitar.
Anyone out did this experiments? what was the results and yes, a steel is not a solid body electric guitar but it doesn't pay to try. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 11:58 am
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| Steve wrote: |
| We seldom get the chance to hear our rig played by someone else, in a gig setting. I’ve had that happen only once. Turns out the weak link in my signal chain was me. |
Yeah, I've been humbled a couple of times.. painful, but at the same time enlightening. Ricky Davis once and Geoff Queen another time.. both full time pro guys.
I'd recommend letting a hack sit in if you can, less helpful, but also less likely to make you want to just give up and sell your stuff..
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Pete Nicholls
From:
Macon, Georgia, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 1:13 pm Look no further than the EHX Knockout Pedal!
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This is the best add on you could make to give you control of your tone, and the price is right. I have two in case one has a premature failure!
https://www.ehx.com/products/knockout/
_________________
Justice The Judge SD-10, 2007
Justice Pro Lite SD-10, 2011
Quilter Steelaire
Quilter Labs Tone Block 202 Head
Roland Cube 80-XL
American Stratocaster - Yamaha Bass Guitar
1 Fender Telecaster Nashville Edition
Ham Call: N4BHB |
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Karen Sarkisian
From:
Boston, MA, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 2:37 pm
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I owned and gigged with a steelaire for a few years. brads black box really warmed it up. i would ask what settings you are using for EQ and suggest trying an analog delay pedal. I dont know what boss delay you are using but boss digital delays always sound a bit sterile to me...
_________________
Emmons, Franklin, Mullen |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 9:58 pm
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Impedance matching between guitar and volume pedal (or whatever is next in line) via a Black Box or other device is vey important. Most modern steel pickup (+/- 18-22k or more DC resistance) WILL sound thin without impedance matching.
But "effects" will not "warm up" your sound. Your clean sound comes from your most basic setup - picks, technique, strings, pickup, pickup height, amplifier voicing and the speaker and cabinet.
"Tubes" are NOT an instant solution. A tube amp needs to be optimized by a qualified tech by hearing you play your guitar through it. That helps the tech determine the types/brands of tubes to use, preamp gain and voicing, power amp bias setting (even with cathode bias amps!) and speaker(s) model(s) and cabinet design and construction.
You can take 3 of the same make/model/year/speakers/cabinet type tube amp, play the same guitar through it with exactly the same settings - and they can sound drastically different - and changing the amp settings still won't get them sounding the same!
Solid state amps also need t be tweaked for best tone - and speakers/cabinets make just as big a difference.
But here's the thing about tube amps - they DO have the potential for sounding warmer and smoother - a more pleasing tone. But it takes more work to get there. They MUST be serviced every 15-20 years (power filter and bias capacitors replaced and adjustments made); newer makes of tubes ned to be replaced far more often than NOS (1950'w/60's/early 70's tubes from reputable suppliers; even ORIGINAL tubes in vintage amps - my '60 blonde Fender Twin and '61 Showman both run perfectly on the original GE and RCA tubes!).
But ness you are a well-trained professional guitar and amp tech it's very hard to optimize your rig's tone yourself. It takes working with a good tech to do it - someone who understands the effect everything from your picks and technique to the *room* configurations of the venues you play to get the best out of your setup - and if you gig at a lot of different size and shape places you may (will!) need more than one amp to cover all the bases (the reasons would take another post twice as long!)..
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 24 Jan 2021 10:05 pm
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Unplug your steel and concentrate on your picking and vibrato.
If you find that you can't get a tone to your liking no matter where you pick or how hard you pick, then no amount of electronics will help.
If you do achieve the desired tone (unplugged), you will find too many electronic gizmos don't help, either
I very rarely plug my steel in, so that I can concentrate on my picking, vibrato etc |
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Craig Woloshin
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2021 8:17 pm
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| thanks for all the input....I will tinker and try different settings...I also like the idea of unplugging and concetrate on my technique as well...and yes Kenneth Kotsay I am still in Davie!!! Appears we are neighbors...would like to compare notes one day |
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Larry Dering
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2021 6:41 am
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| We are all a tone junkie. What sounds great to one may not completely satisfy the other. I bought rigs that were all the rage only to find it didn't satisfy my taste. I have multiple steels by various makers and a hoard of rigs. What gives me the best tone on one didn't work as well with the others. I don't believe any of us are totally happy with our tone, as witnessed by the constant buying and selling of gear on the forum. What we do have in common is trying to get the best out of what we own. While there is no magic bullet, I do believe some rigs are more capable than others. Take the experience of those who responded and do your best to find your most pleasing tone. Dual amps separated by a few feet is a huge sound fat as ever. Try it. Best of luck. |
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