Cabinet drop. Two necks verses one.

James Pennebaker · From: Mt. Juliet, TN

I'm about to order a new Carter guitar. My second one. I've been playing an SD-10 single neck on a double frame. I've always loved the Single neck on a double frame style guitar but I'm considering getting a double neck this time, even though I'm not much of a C6 player. What's the opinion of those here regarding cabinet drop on a Double neck as opposed to a Single neck. More cabinet drop on a Double neck due to the second neck's extra string tention, more pulls etc.? I have an old PP Double neck Emmons and cabinet drop has never been an issue on that guitar. I know from my experience with the Carter's that cabinet drop is really a non issue there. Just curious as to what others might think.

JP

Lem Smith · From: Long Beach, MS

James, I recently measured the cabinet drop on my Sho~Bud Pro II, using a Peterson VS-II tuner, and it was exactly a drop of 1 cent. The worse guitar that I've ever had for cabinet drop, was a Sho~Bud Pro I. On that guitar, you could pick the open 4th string, and push the pedals and very prominently hear the E note lower.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

From a theoretical standpoint, it seems to me that the more strings across the body, the more even the constant tension and the more resistance to cabinet flex.

Theoretically.

John Fabian · From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.

All things being equal, less string tension spread across a narrower body would cause less drop when the pedals are pushed. The differences would be slight.

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

I agree with Charlie.

If you assume all the detuning is coming from the body (and that is likely not accurate), and you are comparing a SD-10 vs. D-10, the SD-10 should tend to to have more drop, since the overall change in tension on the body will be less on the D-10. The D10 has maybe 500 lbs of preload, and then the AB pedals add 4 lbs, percentage change in load equals 4/504. The SD10 has 250 lbs of preload, 4 lbs added for for AB pedals so the percentage change in load is 4/254, a larger number.

Its interesting to think about an S10 vs. a SD10. Using basic mechanics theory, the deflection on the body will be inversely proportional to the moment of inertia. Moment of inertia quantifies the stiffness in a given plane of a given cross sectional shape (an I beam has very high moment of inertia, a piece of sheet metal very low), and an SD10 will have a slightly higher moment of inertia than a S10 in the plane of deflection for a steel body. Its only slightly higher since the majority of the moment of inertia is from the aprons. The wider SD-10 could actually be worse due to non ideal 3 dimensional effects that simple mechanics theory does not account for.

What about an SD10 with a center brace, ie an apron in the center, that would be about 50% stiffer (moment of inertai would be 50% higher than a normal SD10).

Anyway you should get the D10, there is a lot of music on that neck, the 6th tuning is great for non-country styles. If you are not into the jazzy or western swing type stuff that is typically associated with C6, there is lots of blues, rock, other that it works great for.

[This message was edited by Scott Swartz on 05 June 2006 at 08:35 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Then again, who cares, the dancers won't here it, the band won't here it, the player will need a tuner to see it and in the words of Paul Franklin from several years ago, (and I agree) slight detuning actually warms up the "temper" tuning and makes the overall tuning more pleasing to the ear, MUCH MORE than tuning everything "straight up" 440 on a non-tempored tuner.

"Cabinet Drop" may actually be our friend! If handeled correctly.

This is not only my opinion, but the opinion of many professional players I have encountered on this topic in the last several years.

The morel here is, Don't worry about it, just play the guitar. In the time you spend worrying about it, you could have gotten in a lot of practice that is much more important anyway.

Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Ever notice how the worlds greatest players never talk about this subject, they just PLAY!

James Pennebaker · From: Mt. Juliet, TN

Thanks guys for all your comments. Especially yours Bobbe. I have always prescribed to the theory of "shut up and play your guitar!" So I've decided to stick to the Single 10 on a double frame. If it was good enough for Lloyd, it's good enough for me. Plus, I already own a D-10 PP guitar which I don't plan on parting with.

JP

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I had a Sierra D-12/10. I removed the back neck, turning it into an SD-12. There was a measurable increase in "cabinet drop" - about 2 cents on the high E string. Inaudible, but measurable.

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

A. J. Schobert · From: Cincinnati, Ohio,

I just got my new carter d10 and the pedal board is so strong that even playing the c6th pedals I really dont think it would be an issue, now I always thought cabinet drop was something older guitars where plagued with? I may be wrong, Hey bobby lee I always thought that since sierra had an all alliuminum body that would eliminate cabinet drop. What color you going to get?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I'm not currently in the market for a new pedal steel, A.J., but if I was it would be black for the best tone.

The Sierra aluminum frame does not eliminate cabinet drop. Some older guitars of various brands are plagued with excessive cabinet drop. Most modern guitar designs have brought it back to acceptable (barely perceivable) amounts, but the phenomenon is still measurable with good electronic tuners.

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

If the pedal rods pushed up instead of pulling down, would there be "Cabinet RAISE?" Or would it just cancel out the bridge pin bend?

It sure wouldn't take much on a mind to make pedal rods that pushed instead of pulling. Just a little larger stainless tube.

Well, then what could we complain about?

Larry Robbins · From: Fort Edward, New York

Bobbe my friend, you crack me up!

Michael Haselman · From: St. Paul

I gotta admit, after 24+ years of playing, I never heard of cabinet drop until I got on this forum. But I've yet to worry about it. Like global warming or second hand smoke.

------------------
Marrs D-10, Webb 6-14E

James Pennebaker · From: Mt. Juliet, TN

Now I feel like a doofus for even bringing up this subject. I think maybe it was 1:00am in the morning and I couldn't sleep or something. Just talking to hear my head rattle.

JP

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

James, I know the feeling.

Hans Holzherr · From: Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland

quote:

It sure wouldn't take much on a mind to make pedal rods that pushed instead of pulling. Just a little larger stainless tube.

...or just have the pedal stops down where the pedals are.

Hans

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Hans,
I tried that on several guitars and stops at the pedal does not work, mostly because of twist in the pedal bar. However, I have tried stops in both places (pedal crank as well as at the pedal) and it works better than just the single stop at the pedal crank. The ideal set up here is to put an adjustable "brace leg" under the pedal stop porch or incorporate aditional short adjustable legs into the underside of the pedal bar. I've even designed a "brace leg" in the center of the front apron, adjustable to the floor. All of this helped some, but the guitars still had measureable detuning. It was a bitch to adjust and you had to be on a solid surface or it would not work at all.
I have noticed on the Star pedal steels that the metal rails on the front and back aprons are "inlayed" into the cabinet and there is so little "cabinet drop" that it is barely visible on an electronic tuner. No more than 1/10'th of a cent on any string or combination of strings,,,without any compensators of any kind.
I also am of the opinion that the rubber tips that are on the ends of the legs are probably a small culprit in and of themselves.
We could probably split hairs on this subject until there is no more hair to split.
Like some of the others,,,,I contend that we should just sit down to the guitar and play the S. O. B.

!
BB

------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good! http://www.bobbybowman.com

[This message was edited by Bobby Bowman on 06 June 2006 at 02:39 AM.]

Joe Smith · From: Charlotte, NC, USA

I would just like to add that in all of my years of playing the pedal steel, I have never had anyone from the audience ever come up to me and say that they noticed any cabinet drop. LOL

Shaun Marshall · From: San Rafael California, USA

I was in a band where the bass player would take advantage of the post gig free drinks, then we he would load his gear into the van he sometimes experienced "cabinet drop"..............................

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Also, why have a guitar with 8 pedals and 8 knee levers and just play one note at a time all night?
Seems like "cabinet drop" means nothing if you only play one note at a time.
Of course, it really means nothing anyway.
Have you ever noticed "cabinet drop" while you were listening to someone else play. Be honest now.

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 06 June 2006 at 08:37 AM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I don't think any modern steel has enough cabinet drop to worry about.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Then how much do you need to start worrying?

I do agree Donny, I don't know of any guitar that has enough to worry about, or even think about.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

<2% - no problem
>5% - big problem
in between - meh!

YMMV

Joe Smith · From: Charlotte, NC, USA

The worst kind of cabinet drop would be when a drunk loses their balance and lands on your steel. Man, that's serious cabinet drop.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic