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Topic: To sweetend or standard |
Liam Sullins
From:
Brookville, Ohio
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 9:03 am |
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So I've been thinking about this since I got my steel a month and a half ago. I'm tuned to 440 Hz, and I can play along with records fine. What should I do, keep it standard or go sweet? Did the players in the 60s do that or keep it standard?
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'66 Sho~Bud Fingertip, Sho~Bud amps, Fenders, old cars and Tinkerin with steels! |
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Jeremy Reeves
From:
Chatham, IL, USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 9:14 am
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I'm pretty new but haven't been happy with the sweetened presets I've tried.
Sounds best to me to tune standard and vibrato away the tuning discrepancies... |
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James Sission
From:
Sugar Land,Texas USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 9:15 am
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Good question. I am going to subscribe to this thread because tuning discussions are very rare around here and don't usually solicit to many opinions.  |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 9:26 am
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In the sixties practically the only tuners around were the original Conn Strobotuner, and not many people had them. Steel players usually used either a tuning fork or a keyboard to get a refence pitch, E or C, and then tuned by ear. So that's sweetened.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 12:01 pm
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| James Sission wrote: |
| tuning discussions are very rare around here and don't usually solicit too many opinions |
 nice one James!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 1:53 pm
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Peterson SE9 SC6 are working perfectly with the D-10 Franklin I had and now a GFI Expo D-10. I'm perfectly in tune open with the rest of the band. The Newman 442.5 Hz tuning doesn't have much affect as you move from open to a fretted position as its a lot of ear for bar placement to be in tune.
Being an old fart I've been through using an E tuning fork or pitch pipe to get an E and tune from that.
When I first got an electronic tuner, I tuned all the strings to "zero" (e.g. E to the tuner E. B to the tuner B, etc). Everyone told me I was "out of tune". Jeff Newman published his tuning chart and I started using a slightly modified version of the original (not sweetened) Newman tuning and no one ever told me I was out of tune. When Peterson first included the Newman tuning in the flip tuner I tried the Sweetened Newman and didn't like it and to my ears I was out of tune. I continued using my modified Newman tuning until I got the Peterson StroboPlus HD tuner and tried the Newman Sweetened SE9 and the tuning was spot on. I've used the Peterson Sweetened since. I have my own version of the SE9 that combines the SE9 and SP9 into one tuning program and also the same for C6th. |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 2:49 pm
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| Liam, when I was starting out in the 70's, I was playing a Sho-Bud of about the same vintage as yours. I had a question about a mechanical issue that was in some way related to tuning, or staying in tune. It was so long ago that I don't remember the details. Anyway, I wrote to Sho-Bud. I don't think I got a good answer about the mechanical issue, (or maybe I wasn't articulate about my question) but they did send me a copy of Jeff Newman's sweetened "tuning chart". So there you have it, right from the manufacturer of your guitar. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 5:06 pm
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| In the sixties practically the only tuners around were the original Conn Strobotuner, and not many people had them. Steel players usually used either a tuning fork or a keyboard to get a refence pitch, E or C, and then tuned by ear. So that's sweetened. |
Paul, which E did they tune, pedals up or pedals down? |
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Jon Voth
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 7:56 pm
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I am also new and use the SE9 settings. I've also spent time with equal tuning.
For me, most of my time spent practicing by myself, my chords are very in tune in most (not all) of positions. Much more satisfying than having every chord out of tune by a bit all the live long day.
Playing with a band, that sound is still there when I am playing-solos, fills, etc. There are times when I am doing things with a guitar where something is off a bit and I still have to figure that out, but overall I feel in tune with myself and those who can be flexible (singers).
Totally recommend sweetened tunings. Remember, unlike guitar or piano, you bring every chord with you using the bar and it can be in tune. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 9:06 pm
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What HZ on the Tuner do you use when you put the bar on The Strings??
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 11:00 pm
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Fred: I tuned the Es with no pedals, and as a result, I was usually flat to the rest of the band on recordings. It made a huge difference when I learned about tuning the Es a bit sharp with no pedals, as suggested by Jeff Newman.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 20 Nov 2020 11:48 pm
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Spend some time listening to ONE open string. Just sit and listen to it... There's a fifth and third ringing faintly inside it. The more you train your ear to hear the overtones from one single note, the more sense it will make to tune "pure", or closer to it. And the less happy you'll be tuning straight up.
Learning the fundamentals of just Intonation goes a long way also, into the realm of playing and Intonation, beyond simply tuning.
But there's nothing wrong with tuning straight up if that works for you. Equal Temperament is a great system and some great players tune up that way. |
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Liam Sullins
From:
Brookville, Ohio
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Posted 21 Nov 2020 8:47 am
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| Ricky Davis wrote: |
| What HZ on the Tuner do you use when you put the bar on The Strings?? |
440 Hz.
_________________
'66 Sho~Bud Fingertip, Sho~Bud amps, Fenders, old cars and Tinkerin with steels! |
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John Sluszny
From:
Brussels, Belgium
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Posted 21 Nov 2020 9:45 am
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| Jack Stoner wrote: |
| ... I've used the Peterson Sweetened since. I have my own version of the SE9 that combines the SE9 and SP9 into one tuning program and also the same for C6th. |
You mean you can tune your psg strings open and changes without switching between SE9 and SP9, am I right ?
Great idea, I never thought of that ! |
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Dan Kelly
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 21 Nov 2020 11:38 am
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John, I spoke with Peterson rep at the Dallas Show last year. She said that SP9 (pedals) is actually included with SE9. The SP9 duplication is available because it is hard to alert everyone about the "completeness" of the SE9 tuning.
_________________
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Hey You Kids! Get Off My Lawn!
blah, blah, blah. |
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Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2020 1:35 pm
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I use a Peterson Strobo Plus HD tuner. I use the 0E9 and 0P9 settings on E9th and the EM6 and EP6 on the C6 neck. After reading Ricky's post, I read where he posted that your ears are the most important part of tuning and he is 100% correct. The tuners only do half of the job and your ears are the primary tuning.
Last edited by Kevin Fix on 22 Nov 2020 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2020 6:22 pm
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Jeff Newman's tuning is a good start on sweetened tuning.
If you go to links at the top of this forum you can go to Mr. Newman's tuning and it gives the sweetening in Cent's. This will allow you to use any chromatic tuner with Cent's to tune your guitar.
I have used Newman's tuning for near 20 years and have never had a problem playing with a live band,
U-Tube songs. If the guitar is in tune itself, Sometimes you may have to move the bar a bit behind or in front of the fret to get in tune with the music. In the recording of some songs, It has changed the pitch enough you will need to let your ear put the guitar with the music.
Good Luck and Happy Steelin. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2020 8:21 pm
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| Quote: |
Ricky Davis wrote:
What HZ on the Tuner do you use when you put the bar on The Strings??
440 Hz. |
INCORRECT!!
One has no idea if when he puts the bar on the string(s); that the note(s)are exactly 440; unless he is constantly looking at a tuner measure each note he plays.(that would be insanely impossible.
When you put the bar on the strings to play; your "tuner" now is your "EAR"...PERIOD.
With bar on strings; in order to play "IN TUNE" is the ability of your "EAR". Tuning the strings open to a certain position on the tuner is NOT INCREASING the ABILITY of your Ear.....PERIOD!!.
Stop worrying about how your notes line up on a tuner and work on the Ability of your EAR. Both my Teachers have always directed me in this direction; and those directions to me, came out of the instruction knowledge of Tom Brumley and Lloyd Green. Any time I've discussed tuning and playing in tune with those two; That is what they say every time(What are we doing to increase the ability of our Ear).
Bottom line: If you go into the studio to sing harmony with a singer; and he sings a perfect E 440 note and then you sing the harmony note G# (the 3rd tone) and you choose to sing a G# 440> "YOU ARE IMMEDIATELY FIRED" cause you can't sing in Tune and they need to pay someone that CAN sing in Tune.(I've seen it happen at a major recording studio).
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2020 9:07 pm
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| Ricky Davis wrote: |
| Quote: |
Ricky Davis wrote:
What HZ on the Tuner do you use when you put the bar on The Strings??
440 Hz. |
INCORRECT!!
Ricky |
It was a weird question. Maybe he just misunderstood. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Nov 2020 9:55 pm
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| In the sixties practically the only tuners around were the original Conn Strobotuner, and not many people had them. Steel players usually used either a tuning fork or a keyboard to get a refence pitch, E or C, and then tuned by ear. So that's sweetened. |
Not necessarily. "Sweetening" just means you've fudged something one way or another. If you tune strictly JI from a reference note, nothing is fudged. When you tune ET, that's when sweetening comes into play, as you're choosing to use compromised values instead of dead-on (beatless) ones.
To me, the "tuning pedals up or down" is a fool's errand, as whichever one you pick makes the other a little bit off. I just tune "pedals up" because the majority of my (and everyone else's) playing is pedals up. |
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Fred Justice
From:
Mesa, Arizona
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Posted 21 Nov 2020 10:36 pm
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I tune my E (4th string) to 443
This enables me to see the fret marker all the way up the neck, and still be in tune with the rest of the band. ( I know, it sounds weird, but its worked for years.
After I tune my E (4th string to 443, I then tune the rest of the neck by ear.
Now, the good Lord gave me a very very good ear.
I can hear any and all harmonic beats or waves have you, and tune them out. Thank you Lord, and God bless America.
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Email: azpedalman@gmail.com
Phone: 480-235-8797 |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Nov 2020 4:10 am
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| Fred Justice wrote: |
I tune my E (4th string) to 443
This enables me to see the fret marker all the way up the neck, and still be in tune with the rest of the band. |
Fred, what do you do when the guitar player is tuning and says... "gimme an E"? |
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James Sission
From:
Sugar Land,Texas USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2020 7:03 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Fred Justice wrote: |
I tune my E (4th string) to 443
This enables me to see the fret marker all the way up the neck, and still be in tune with the rest of the band. |
Fred, what do you do when the guitar player is tuning and says... "gimme an E"? |
Hand him a tuner and say " here you go, I don't tune to 440." |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2020 9:20 am
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| Quote: |
It was a weird question. Maybe he just misunderstood |
Yes but my answer is good for everyone out there trying to figure out how to tune their pedal steel guitar.
It is your ear that Tunes and plays your steel guitar, not your tuner.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2020 10:01 am Re: To sweetend or standard
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| Liam Sullins wrote: |
| So I've been thinking about this since I got my steel a month and a half ago. I'm tuned to 440 Hz, and I can play along with records fine. What should I do, keep it standard or go sweet? Did the players in the 60s do that or keep it standard? |
Electronic tuners didn't exist in the 60s. Everyone tuned by ear. The better your ear, the more in tune you were.
Before I got an electronic tuner in the mid-70s, I tuned by ear using harmonics. That is what we refer to as "just intonation" (JI). Tuning everything to the center mark on a tuner is "equal temperament" (ET). Most steel players use JI or something close to it, with the pedaled "A" note tuned to 440 Hz (cycles per second).
When I was tuning by harmonics, I started by tuning the E note to a tuning fork. Back then, "Give me an E" was a very common phrase on the bandstand. Everyone tuned by ear. Some weekend bands sounded really bad because of it. Singers were notoriously bad at tuning their rhythm guitars.
The first affordable electronic tuners appeared in the mid 70s. The very popular Korg tuner had a dial to set the note you were tuning and a meter that was calibrated in Hz, not cents, with 440 Hz at the center mark. That's how the notion of "tuning E's to 440" got started. In fact, when you tuned the E's to 440 on the dial, you were actually tuning them to 329.6 Hz. "A" is the only note that is 440 Hz. It's used as a reference in the same way that "Give me an E" was used in the past. All of the other notes are derived mathematically from it.*
Liam: If you are happy playing along to records with your ET tuning, there's no compelling reason to change. Most of us prefer a "sweeter" temperament or JI, but both ET and JI sound in tune to most listeners. It's not a huge difference. To me, the fact that a pedal steel can sound better than ET is a fundamental characteristic of the instrument. I love it for that. What a marvelous invention it is!
*In ET, each half-step is calculated by multiplying the previous one by 2<sup>1/2</sup>, which results in 12 equal steps per octave. In JI, musical intervals are calculated by ratios of whole numbers. You can read about that here.
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