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Topic: Thoughts on Universal |
Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 26 Oct 2020 1:40 pm |
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| After playing Jeff's uni tuning for 30+ years, but always being intrigued or curious about Reece's Bb tuning, I'd like to hear some other thoughts on this. Of course Jeff is using the 9th "side" of the tuning to get to the 6th "side",,Reece's goes the opposite direction. Paul Franklin has a video demo'ing E9th sounds on C6th. Since so much 9th stuff can be done on 6th, it seems to make a lot more sense to,,instead of lowing the root to go to a 6th sound, to raise that same tone on a 6th tuning to get a 9th, i.e. country sound,,as Reece's tuning does,,,and David Wright and Jr. Knight do so well. Other than the A and B pedal licks,,most everything else is just as accessible on the 6thh tuning. Just thinking??? |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2020 2:39 pm
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Eager to read about the knowledge that will be shared......
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RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 26 Oct 2020 2:42 pm Re: Thoughts on Universal
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| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
| Jeff is using the 9th "side" of the tuning to get to the 6th "side" |
Sonny, it's really interesting that you see it that way. I've always viewed the B6/E9 as two tunings laid on top of one another, largely overlapping with the top two E9 strings sticking out the top, and the bottom strings of the B6 poking out the bottom. But two equal tunings with common strings in the middle range.
I haven't studied Reece Anderson much but his tuning was obviously geared to his preferred styles, with the E9 (or Eb9) stuff available if required, which I guess was not often.
In a similar vein, according to the appendix of the Winston book Ernie Hagar's guitar sat in A6 and the pedals put it in E9, the opposite to everyone else. But not wrong! Nothing on this instrument is or can be.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 26 Oct 2020 2:52 pm
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,,,"I haven't studied Reece Anderson much but his tuning was obviously geared to his preferred styles, with the E9 (or Eb9) stuff available if required, which I guess was not often. ",,,
But both David and Jr play Bb6 and both plays TONS of E9,,but get a lot, other than A/B pedal licks from the 6th tuning,,extended chords/harmonies. And yes, Jeff advocated seeing his universal as one tuning,,,and by the same token,,got most of the same extended chords/harmonies from,,minus low strings, 3 pedals 3 KL E9. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Oct 2020 12:03 am
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Thanks for educating me, Sonny, as usual! When I first looked at the Anderson setup I couldn't make sense of it, but now I have a few years under my belt I'll revisit it.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 27 Oct 2020 5:44 am
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| Yes Ian,,,my "education" is an ongoing thing,,,,I've gone back and forth (thought wise) for 30+ years. Also bear in mind that Jeff's tuning, 6th pedal raises the Es back up to,,not the common E9,,but another form of E extended,,,,an E but not so "country" sounding E. Back and forth,,,,,back and forth,,LOL. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 27 Oct 2020 6:40 am
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I think Pete Burak plays some modified version of Jeff's uni,,maybe he'll chime in,,,or maybe Paul F. will comment when he puts the thoughts together that us mortals can comprehend,,,LOL.
Maybe it all boils down to,,which tuning can you get the most out of,,a 6th,,or a 9th,,or maybe a 6/9 (as Zane Beck and King). |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2020 8:15 am
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I've been an E9/B6 uni player since the early 80's. I bought an MSA "The Universal" from Maurice at the time. He asked me up front - which mode will I be in most of the time. I replied E9. He set the guitar up E9/B6.
I think this says it all.
If you are more familiar with C6 you may choose his Bb6. |
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Marco Schouten
From:
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Posted 27 Oct 2020 9:08 am Re: Thoughts on Universal
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| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
| After playing Jeff's uni tuning for 30+ years, but always being intrigued or curious about Reece's Bb tuning, I'd like to hear some other thoughts on this. Of course Jeff is using the 9th "side" of the tuning to get to the 6th "side",,Reece's goes the opposite direction. Paul Franklin has a video demo'ing E9th sounds on C6th. Since so much 9th stuff can be done on 6th, it seems to make a lot more sense to,,instead of lowing the root to go to a 6th sound, to raise that same tone on a 6th tuning to get a 9th, i.e. country sound,,as Reece's tuning does,,,and David Wright and Jr. Knight do so well. Other than the A and B pedal licks,,most everything else is just as accessible on the 6thh tuning. Just thinking??? |
You call it Jeff's uni tuning, but actually it was developped by Jan Visser from The Netherlands. It was demonstrated to Jeff by a friend of Jan who visited the US. Not relevant to your post, but just to get history correct, and to give credit to Jan.
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JCH SD-10 with BL XR-16 pickup, Sho-Bud Volume Pedal, Evidence Audio Lyric HG cables, Quilter Steelaire combo |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 27 Oct 2020 12:13 pm
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Credit to where credit is due, however Jeff Newman popularized the tuning that now bears his name.
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 27 Oct 2020 2:13 pm
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| Good to know,,thanks Marco. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2020 4:02 pm
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I started on Jeff's E9/B6 Universal.
I later changed the order of the first three strings to:
1-D#
2-G#
3-F#
This favors the B6th tuning when I have my E's lowered, (and some of my Steels have a lever lock for B6th).
Then I tuned the whole thing down a halfstep to Eb9/Bb6.
This allows me to play the Open-E and Open-A Chord positions at fret-1 with the Bar. I really like this for my E9th style.
So I still think of it as E9/B6 Uni, but I am now basically playing Bb6/Eb9.
Our local Jazz guy Christopher Woitach plays Reece's Bb6th. Hopefully he will chime in.
So this is what I have at Fret-1 now (since I tune down a half step).
Notice strings 2,3,4,5,6 are in the same order as 6,7,8,9,10.
Since we don't have a D on string-9 this made more logical sense to me than standard E9th S10 string order.
I put the D# on String-1, and it becomes a C# (D-on-top in C6th) for B6th mode.
1-D# (C# for B6)
2-G#
3-F#
4-E (Eb for B6)
5-B
6-G#
7-F#
8-E (Eb for B6)
9-B
10-G#
11-E
12-B
Last edited by Pete Burak on 28 Oct 2020 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 27 Oct 2020 6:06 pm
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I've been exploring a very boiled down Bb6 inspired set up for 10 strings.
It is actually A6, and string 4&8 come up on RKL to D, bringing it into a D9 type tuning.
The intervalic spacing of strings 9-6 is the same as that of strings 5-2, akin to the Bb universal approach that Peter described above. It is a very handy way to arrange the strings, though a little counter-intuitive for the E9 muscle memory.
It is a very simple copedant. I'm finding alot of great voicings, and the E9 sounds are still very accessible!
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 27 Oct 2020 7:06 pm Re: Thoughts on Universal
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Paul Franklin has a video demo'ing E9th sounds on C6th. [/quote]
Sonny, I'd be interested to see this. Do you have a link to this video?
Thanks! |
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Franklin
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 28 Oct 2020 7:10 am
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One observation I have made over years is that E9th is more sensitive to micro tuning issues than the 6th tuning. So for Universal I chose to hold (or Lock) the E-to-Eb knee-lever over for playing in 6th Mode.
Of the actual Bb6th Universal Steels that I have seen and played, you hold a knee-lever to play in the 9th tuning, and having tried it, I thought it impacted my E9th tuning stability a bit. I haven't seen a Bb6th Steel with a lever-Lock.
In terms of E9th, your E-to-Eb lever is reversed, and you engage it to play an open-E or open-A, etc. As I recall, they do not have a standsrd F-lever for E9th mode.
I personally chose to keep the E-to-Eb lever and mainly play Country Rock and Western Swing.
The Bb6th players that I have heard are way more into Jazz stylings. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 28 Oct 2020 9:19 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
One observation I have made over years is that E9th is more sensitive to micro tuning issues than the 6th tuning. So for Universal I chose to hold (or Lock) the E-to-Eb knee-lever over for playing in 6th Mode.
Of the actual Bb6th Universal Steels that I have seen and played, you hold a knee-lever to play in the 9th tuning, and having tried it, I thought it impacted my E9th tuning stability a bit. I haven't seen a Bb6th Steel with a lever-Lock.
In terms of E9th, your E-to-Eb lever is reversed, and you engage it to play an open-E or open-A, etc. As I recall, they do not have a standsrd F-lever for E9th mode.
I personally chose to keep the E-to-Eb lever and mainly play Country Rock and Western Swing.
The Bb6th players that I have heard are way more into Jazz stylings. |
Interesting point. The set up I've been exploring requires the Es to be raised to get the 9th sounds (in my case C#-D into D9) The tuning stability issue seemed to stem from my micro-muscle memory adapting to a new system. The E9 sounds are becoming way smoother and familiar in this tuning and the nuances of Intonation are being ironed the more I see and hear how the guitar behaves.
There is though, some pretty pronounced and consistent hysteresis on string 4. After I raise it for those E9 phrases, it returns sharp. Luckily it does neutralize after I lower and return that string. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 28 Oct 2020 9:26 am
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That's great Paul. Thanks for that link! |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 28 Oct 2020 9:28 am
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| My thoughts on Universal are … too many strings for such a narrow range. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 28 Oct 2020 9:35 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| My thoughts on Universal are … too many strings for such a narrow range. |
Hmmm, I always thought of the range to be identicle to a D10.
Can you share some examples of that thought?
Do you mean musically?..or. Mechanically?
Guys I also noticed there are alot of old threads on this topic with 'Reece himself giving reasons and explainations for Bb6, if you do a Forum or Google search for Maurice Anderson Bb6 or similar phrase.
Here is a detailed article he wrote:
https://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 28 Oct 2020 10:59 am
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Andrew that is a bare bones version of Reece's Bb6,,of course his is expanded to 12 string, 5 more pedal and a couple of KL.
Also bear in mind that what some (Zane Beck and King) are calling "E9 with added 6th or E9/6",,a few of the old time players (Weldon Myrick comes to mind) had a 6th on the second string of E9 (C# instead of D#) I believe. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 28 Oct 2020 11:36 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
Hmmm, I always thought of the range to be identicle to a D10.
Can you share some examples of that thought?
Do you mean musically?..or. Mechanically? |
To me the instrument's mechanics only serves the purpose of allowing me to play music the way I want, so obviously "musically" comes first. Here follows a few of my thoughts behind my own "mods" to a conventional S10 E9…
- I like to have the range of a D10 (or 6-string guitars which is what I started out with). Thus, the instrument obviously has to have the range "built in".
- No need for pedals/levers to form every possible chord I may want to produce. The bar is "movable" and does not have to be held straight across the strings. Also rarely ever the need, or space, for all individual notes in chords in order to make them sound "complete".
- No need to emulate, or copy, other players verbatim. Having the ability to "borrow the sounds" I like whenever I feel like it, will do fine.
- Always nice to be able to play other players' "more standardized" instruments without getting lost.
With the above in mind I ended up with an extended range and a few more changes on my old S10, and has never felt the need to set up the S12 Uni I have stored in the closet in order to play whatever I want the way I want.
Extended E tuning
Modified Dekley |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 28 Oct 2020 11:42 am
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| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
Andrew that is a bare bones version of Reece's Bb6,,of course his is expanded to 12 string, 5 more pedal and a couple of KL.
Also bear in mind that what some (Zane Beck and King) are calling "E9 with added 6th or E9/6",,a few of the old time players (Weldon Myrick comes to mind) had a 6th on the second string of E9 (C# instead of D#) I believe. |
You bet, Sonny. You're right, it is absolutely bare bones. As primarily an E9 player I found myself constantly dwelling in the Es lowered B6 mode and wanted to build on that while maintaining the simplicity of E9 vocabulary to an extent.
I only recently realized that my set up has some fundamental similarities to the way the Bb uni operates.
The added 6th on my A6/D9 set up would be a B on top which works well, but I've opted for a Major 7 that offers some useful #11 sounds and some handy triadic harmonic stuff in the high end. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 28 Oct 2020 12:32 pm
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| Pete Burak wrote: |
Hmmm, I always thought of the range to be identicle to a D10.
Can you share some examples of that thought?
Do you mean musically?..or. Mechanically? |
To me the instrument's mechanics only serves the purpose of allowing me to play music the way I want, so obviously "musically" comes first. Here follows a few of my thoughts behind my own "mods" to a conventional S10 E9…
- I like to have the range of a D10 (or 6-string guitars which is what I started out with). Thus, the instrument obviously has to have the range "built in".
- No need for pedals/levers to form every possible chord I may want to produce. The bar is "movable" and does not have to be held straight across the strings. Also rarely ever the need, or space, for all individual notes in chords in order to make them sound "complete".
- No need to emulate, or copy, other players verbatim. Having the ability to "borrow the sounds" I like whenever I feel like it, will do fine.
- Always nice to be able to play other players' "more standardized" instruments without getting lost.
With the above in mind I ended up with an extended range and a few more changes on my old S10, and has never felt the need to set up the S12 Uni I have stored in the closet in order to play whatever I want the way I want.
Extended E tuning
Modified Dekley |
Wow it looks like you are really off on your own thing with that tuning, Georg!
Do you have a video of you playing it? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 28 Oct 2020 1:57 pm
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
Wow it looks like you are really off on your own thing with that tuning, Georg!
Do you have a video of you playing it? |
Nope. May make some one day, but it isn't one of my priorities.
- Some recordings from back in the -90s may still exist at a local radio station, but I don't have access to them.
- Have played my "US Dekley" with similar tuning but no other modifications, at the former "Florida steel guitar club", but don't think any recordings was made.
- Have demoed the original "Extended E" PSG for Lloyd Green (1991) and Mike Sweeney (2010), and they have both confirmed the tuning's capabilities. |
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