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Topic: Issues with LKL on MSA Pedal Steel |
Erik Roos
From:
Sweden
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Posted 24 Oct 2020 2:36 am |
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I’m posting a picture showing the changer with the strings “in tuneâ€. Everything is in line except for the High E. I tried to push it back in place but that’s not possible.
When all changes are deactivated on the low E it’s like nothing is pulling the high E back to pitch at all. What is normally making the string return to pitch? Is it just the tension of the string itself or i there another hidden return spring some where?
My guess is that right now it’s that the low E that’s pulling the high e back in pitch. When the low E raise is tuned correctly it doesn’t have enough force for the high E to return to pitch. The more I raise the Lower E the more force it has pulling itself and the high e back to pitch. This seems to effect the C-pedal as well. What’s so strange about this is that when I raised and lowered the string manually with a screwdriver, the string went smoothly back to pitch as it should.
Do you think the high e not reaching Eb when lowerd has something to do with this as well or is that a different problem?
All the best
//Erik
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Norman Evans
From:
Tennessee
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Posted 24 Oct 2020 6:23 am
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| I can't see in the what's happening with the knee lever in the video, but could the lever itself be binding on something? |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 24 Oct 2020 1:31 pm
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Great videos, great guitar Erik, I have the same one, I wish you lived closer I’d sort that out for you.
Can you loosen off the nylon for the E raise for the C pedal, will it return to E Now? |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 24 Oct 2020 2:43 pm
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Also: you will see where the rods run through other bellcranks...Makes sure the rods are not binding in the pass thru’s.... this is common when somebody has been working on it, and the bell cranks are not aligned perfectly. |
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Erik Roos
From:
Sweden
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Posted 24 Oct 2020 2:55 pm
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I untightened all the tension on all the changes on both the Es except for the high e raise. When doing so nothing is pulling the lever back at all. It stays where I put i it.
I did try looking for issues with the bell cranks. As you can tell I’m far from an expert but to me everything looks fine. Maybe a little tight in some places but all the rods seem to be moving freely. I’ll try to get some good shots of it tomorrow.
I uploaded a new video showing of the issue as for right now
https://youtu.be/Yw5vgVqCwbc
All the best
//Erik |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 24 Oct 2020 3:28 pm
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Good man I did watch all your videos, let’s try this to try and isolate the issue.
Check the lever stop Isent dragging on the B pedal cross rod, as you can see the lever stop on mine has been trimmed up, but I ha e seen them longer and can drag on the B pedal cross rod causing binding. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2020 5:14 pm
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All right, now we're getting closer.
It looks like Larry has an MSA and has a good idea of where you can look for a binding problem, so check that out.
First, the fact that you can't get the 4th string's finger to line up in the changer... that's a problem, and it's causing the inability to tune both open AND the knee-lever note at the same time. Why won't that 4th string finger move back into place when you push on it (with no tension on the nylon nuts)? Is there maybe an old ball from a broken string stuck deep in the mechanism? That's a common problem. You may have to remove the spring on the 4th string to be able to see down into the mechanism.
This issue may be causing the other problem, where the lever sticks, but I don't think so... if you can get the E-raise to work manually with a screwdriver, the changer is working as it should. The lever-sticking is a second problem; something in the pull-train is sticking or rubbing.
To answer your earlier question, yes, it's just the tension of the string that pulls everything back into place after a raise.
And I do agree with your theory that when you had String 8 tuned up on the lever, it was the additional tension there that was allowing the lever to return to position.
But the 4th string alone does not have enough force behind it to pull the lever back. This is good evidence that something is not moving freely in the pull-train. The problem is either with the lever mechanism, or the pull rods are rubbing, or the round crossbar is sticking (this is what Norman mentioned earlier in this thread), so those are the areas where you'll search for the problem.
You may have to take the rods off to try find the part that's sticking. Test one thing at a time. For example, remove the rods so they are out of the equation and see if you can rotate the crossbar by hand by pushing on one of the bellcranks. It should turn very easily.
If that isn't the problem, it might be a good idea to put the guitar in its case and move that lever... and then compare that to the RKL lever (the other lever that moves the same direction as the one you're having a problem with). It has the same mechanical design as the LKL, so try to see if there's anything different about the way it looks and feels as you are moving each lever. For example, maybe you'll find that part of the mounting bracket is bent a little and is rubbing on part of the lever. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Oct 2020 6:04 pm
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Two problems jump out at me when I look at the pic below.
First, the 4th string lower is over-tuned. (See how the finger is out of line with the rest of the fingers?) You need to back off the tuning nut to relax that finger, and then start again.
Second, the lock barrel on finger #6 (that little thing with the setscrew on it) needs to be backed away from the finger. It should be in the same location as the one above it, on finger #5. Loosen the setscrew and slide it back away from the finger about 1/4", then try tuning the pedals again.
Problems like this can be easily spotted by just looking at the mechanism, once you get some basic familiarity with all pull guitars.  |
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Erik Roos
From:
Sweden
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Posted 25 Oct 2020 12:24 am
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New update. The fingers not aligning was definitely caused by overturning the E to Eb change. The strange thing is that I can’t get the lever to lower the string at all unless it’s tuned up that much. Would this be fixed by simply untightening it’s rod in the bell crank and pulling it back a bit so the rod wouldn’t have to move that much in order for it to be pulling the changer?
For the E raise, I tried to isolate the issue by untightening the screw holding the bell crank in place on the cross-shaft. When doing so the lever and the cross-shaft is now moving freely. The high E bell crank however feels REALLY clunky and stiff. It won’t move unless I give it quite a bit of force. And it won’t move without moving the C pedal at the same time.
You’ll see it really clearly in the video below
https://youtu.be/luV1gl73ApA
Quick question about the low E. Should the lever be comfortable staying in the “neutral†position when nothings holding on to the raise rod in the changer. Mine wants to be in the fully activated position unless I fasten the nylon nut on the end of the rod. The nylon nut seems to be what’s holding it in place, keeping it from wanting to be pulled back to the activated position by the spring attached between the LKL and the LKR bell crank. When tightening the nut there can’t be any slack what so ever. Is this normal?
All the best
//Erik |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 25 Oct 2020 5:16 am
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You’re on it...your troubles are right there in those bellcranks, The reason the C pedal is jumping around is because of the binding. Take photographs and make notes of what rods go in what holes, also make notes on a notepad what each function does.
That E raise rod looks like it’s bent and pinched tight against C pedal bellcrank it passes thru, that’s why your C pedal keeps jumping around when you operate lever. Free that up by loosening the C pedal bellcrank, and moving it over just a couple of millimetres, and let us know, Good work Erik ðŸ‘ðŸ»ðŸ˜Š |
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Erik Roos
From:
Sweden
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Posted 25 Oct 2020 6:55 am
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FINALY! I moved the rod for the high E raise down to a lower hole in the bellcrank too keep it from bending. I also moved the bell crank itself a tiny bit to the side. Everything operates much smoother now. I can now for the first time tune both the high and the low E to F raise to pitch with none of them returning sharp! THANK YOU SO MUCH!
The only problem that’s left now is the overtuned E-Eb change. As someone pointed out before this makes the E raise return sharp as well. How do I adjust the change so that I don’t have to tighten the nylon nut so much for it to lower the string? Do I pull the rod itself back a bit into the guitar or should I just adjust the travel on the lever?
Once again thank you so much for all your help!
//Erik |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 25 Oct 2020 8:12 am
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Fantastic!!!!  . Yes you need more travel for the lever then back off nylons, when all is set right you should have some free play in the rods So the nylons are not up tight against the changer, the thickness of say a mm or more for free play in rods.
1) Back the nylons off, until you have about 1 to 2 mm of free play in the rods by wiggling the knee lever.
2) now activate the lever and see if it pulls it is down to D#? Probably not?
3) now adjust the lever stop so you can get enough pull for the D#
This will get you going. there are other fine adjustments that can be made. |
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Erik Roos
From:
Sweden
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Posted 29 Oct 2020 12:14 pm
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I think I finally got it! Everything now works like it’s supposed to! Just need make some minor adjustments to get the feel right. Thank you all so much for all your help, you’ve been a real blessing! I would’ve never gotten even close to solving it by my self!
All the best
//Erik |
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