Issues with LKL on MSA Pedal Steel

Erik Roos · From: Sweden

Hi! I really need help with my LKL raising my high E to F. At first the problem was that the string always returned quite a bit sharp after raising it. For some reason this could be fixed by tuning the low E raise really sharp. (almost all the way to F#) This made the high E return in tune. A couple of days ago the LKL-stop for some reason came lose, so I had unlimited travel on the lever. When I tightened it today a new problem accrued. For some reason I canâ€™t tune the lever without it affecting the overall tuning of the string. Iâ€™ve tried to back off the nylon nuts of all the pulls for the high E until they didn't effect the open string pitch.
I then re-tuned the open string and turned the nylon nuts back in till they changed the string to their proper pitches. Unfortunately this did not do the trick and Iâ€™m stuck with the same problem.

As if this wasnâ€™t enough the lever tends to move quite a lot in its default position. This does not effect the low E at all, but the high E takes of half the way up to F just by touching the lever and canâ€™t seem to go back in tune unless I rock one of the other changes on that string quite a bit.

Iâ€™ll send a link to a unlisted YouTube video showing the problem.

https://youtu.be/r546SIrSyUU

Iâ€™m extremely grateful fo any advice!

All the best
//Erik

Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

Erik I'm no steel tech and though I own a couple MSA's they are newer than yours. So one of the things I'm curious about it the amount of travel on your E raise lever, which looks off to me. Anyhow, I read that you backed off the raise hex nut, but wonder if you also backed off the lower hex nut as well... I think I'd start there, and if after doing that the string still returns sharp, maybe try adjusting the return spring. I wonder too, if you changed string gauge on that string and then this issue occurred or what changed if this wasn't doing it before a certain time.... You may also want to check that your belcrank is tight on the cross-shaft... that was an issue for me once on a Mullen I owned... Belcrank was a little loose and the string wouldn't return consistently... Good Luck.
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Fred Justice · From: Mesa, Arizona

Erik, in 9 out of 10 times, tightening the return spring a little will fix the problem.
If that don't do the trick, look for anything rubbing underneath, such as two rods, or a rod rubbing on the side of a bell crank.
Good luck my friend.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Check at the changer end for ball ends interfering with the scissors returning to the stop bar.
In addition, when did the rivets last see a drop of oil? They only need a drop every couple of years, but if they go sticky, they'll annoy you no end.

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Erik Roos · From: Sweden

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I suspect that you didn't move the stop-lever back where it was nwhen you tightened it, or the string in question is pulling at an angle at the keyhead. This creates side-load friction, and the string between the nut and the tuning key isn't moving along with the rest of the string. Winking

Erik Roos · From: Sweden

Thank you so much for all the answers!

Do you think the work on the changer only will address the issue with the string returning sharp or could it help with the tuning problems as well?

Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

Norman Evans · From: Tennessee

From watching the video, I think you may need to check the Delrin bushings on the cross rod. One may have come out of the hole. If it has, push it back in and see if that fixes it.

Erik Roos · From: Sweden

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Take a Phillips screwdriver and push on the lowering and raising scissors; making sure they return to the stop bar.

When chasing problems, ALWAYS start with the changer, and work your way up the pull train.

Some of the issues you described sound like scissors are staying proud of the stop bar.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
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Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

These are used on the rods, so that when you fold the knee lever in, the rod doesnâ€™t push back, you need about half of an inch play from the scissor otherwise binding will happen. You should be able to wiggle the rods some (in and out) if not its too tight, also when lever is fully activated that brass rod stopper should not be up against the scissor, there should be some room there 5mm is fine.

Erik Roos · From: Sweden

Erik Roos · From: Sweden

I noticed that the high E bell crank was tilted back in relation to the lower one. I adjusted that and that actually seemed to help with the string not returning to pitch. Iâ€™ve got an old MSA Classic with non-adjustable return springs. To adjust those I guess Iâ€™d have to cut them and then bend them back in place.

I once again tried to back off all the nylon nuts for the high E and tuned the string to its proper pitch. When I tightened the nuts back again both the tuning of the LKL and LKR (lowering Es) effects the open string tuning. When tuning the open E to pitch the raise raises the string to little and the lower lowers the string to little. Tightening the nylon nuts effects the string as well. Itâ€™s like the rods have a set travel distance and all I can do is adjust the starting point.

As for right now Iâ€™ve loosened all the nylon nuts again. Any tips on where I can go from here?

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Start fresh and work one string at a time letâ€™s say the low E.....Adjust that nylon up again but not all the way, bring it up to about 2mm from touching the changer, ( donâ€™t tighten it all the way to the changer you have to have that slack)

Does the Low E string raise some at this point?
Did the clicking noise go away?

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Have you removed the nut rollers, Cleaned the rollers and polished the shaft lately?

I gigged a MSA S10 Classic had that same problem. (Return string high) I removed the Shaft and nut rollers. (Keep Them In Order and Replace in same string slot as removed.)
Check each, Make sure rollers roll smooth under pressure of strings. Make sure slots have no burrs and polish the rod smooth with 0000 Steel Wool. Lube shaft and replace.

With dirt and sweat will rust and rough the roller shaft. I cleaned and lubed the rollers and shaft every 3rd string change while gigging this guitar.

Good Luck and back Happy Steelin.

David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

Check the knee lever bracket itself. Due to the early MSA guitars having round cross rods, the brackets over time will cease to tighten enough to hold firmly in place and will slip on the rod when actuated. While rebuilding an early MSA noticed this occurring and ordered a replacement from Michael Yahl at 'PSG Parts' (better quality than the factory part).

Al Evans · From: Austin, Texas, USA

I'm not all that knowledgeable, but I've spent a lot of time in the past year or so on the underside of an MSA Classic. Here's what I would do:

Unless the changer finger is completely released and up against its stop, flush with the lower finger, the string won't return to pitch. Contrariwise, if the string returns sharp, the changer finger must be still "pulled" from its resting position. You need to find out why.

Try slacking the string way off and moving the changer finger by hand. Does it move easily? If there's any resistance, peer into the mechanism with a good light and search for a string end or other foreign object. If you can't find any obvious cause for its stickage, and if a drop or two of "hail Mary" lubrication doesn't help, the changer probably needs to come apart.

This holds for either or both strings pulled by LKL. And while the strings are slack, check the movement of the knee lever. Does it move easily both directions? You might as well check the nut rollers to make sure they rotate freely at this point, too.

If the knee lever, cross shaft, and pull rod don't move without resistance, find whatever is hindering them. Friction against another rod or something else? Cross shaft not rotating freely? Maybe the little barrel connecting a pull rod to the bell crank isn't rotating freely in its hole? In any event , you might as well put a drop of lube on the barrel while you're there (a Tri-Flow Pin Point Lubricator works well for this kind of thing).

There's not really any "mechanism" to the knee lever itself. On mine, there's a "stop" attached to the shaft near the back of the guitar, and I guess this could somehow get moved so that it rubs against the back plate.

In my opinion, if all these things are right, the LKL lever HAS to work. If it still doesn't, you may need a Pedal Steel Exorcist, which is way beyond my pay grade!

--Al Evans
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

It's difficult to deduce a problem without hands on, but it sounds like you have a travel issue. Flip the guitar over, operate the lever and examine what's happening with your linkages. Travel adjustment entails adjusting the stop primarily as well as the leverage points mainly on the bellcrank rod position and slightly with the changer hole location.

It's just a matter of examining and deducing the reason the lever doesn't have enough movement to achieve the desired note and finding the adjustment method/location.

To check for a lower return spring problem, operate the lever in question. When it returns, see if you can push back the lowering member toward the endplate with your finger. If you can, it means the spring is not pulling it all the way back. If it's returning to the stop plate, no need to try and shorten the spring.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Great advice from everyone. The solution is in that list, somewhere. Let me summarize it and take a stab by taking a 'divide and conquer' approach.

You originally reported two different problems. I don't think they are related, but trying to solve them both at the same time has led to confusion. Let's solve them individually.

Problem 1: The high E doesn't return in tune after a raise. This is called 'hysteresis' and it usually caused by the roller nut not rolling easily. The solution is to loosen the string and lubricate the roller. It must turn freely. Also, carefully wind the string on the tuning post so that it exits the post toward the end of the post. You do this so that the string will cross the roller nut in as straight a line as possible (you can inspect your work by viewing the strings from the end of the guitar to see how straight of a line the 4th string makes when it goes over the roller).

Problem 2: You heard and felt something come loose while playing and you suddenly lost your ability to raise the 4th string. When tuning the nylon nut, this caused the open E string's pitch to change.

Al Evans · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Erik Roos · From: Sweden

Thanks a lot to all of you for all the help! Especially Tucker for summarizing everything.

As for right now I'm back to where I was before the tuning issues really took off, which means that the 4th string rais can be tuned and works perfectly as long as the 8th string raise is tuned way way too tight. Itâ€™s been that way forever but since iâ€™ve started practising more seriously, it really annoys me!

Iâ€™m pretty sure it wasnâ€™t the bell crank that came loose, it was the lever itself. As David pointed out, the earlier MSA models have a round cross shaft, and my screws are starting to wear out and come loose. I put the lever back in place but it tends to want to come loose if Iâ€™m not being careful.

So to summarize. The 4th string E-F raise works fine as long as the 8th string raises the Es closer to F# then F. When I tune the 8th string raise to work properly, the 4th string either returns sharp and gets really difficult to tune. Itâ€™s like everything gets stiffer and more solid the more I tighten the 8th string nut. Once I loosen it so that the 8th string only raises to F like itâ€™s supposed to, the lever itself feels loose and klany, and the 4th string comes back in pitch.

Thanks again!
All the best
//Erik

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Three Questions:

1) Are the springs on string 4 or 8 moving when you engage the E-raise lever? Put the guitar in the case and move the lever and watch the springs. They should not move.

2) With your 8th string raise tuned (purposefully incorrectly) to F#, when you look at the changer fingers, are they all in line? They should be in line, with no lever pushed. You should look at this from above the changer, and then turn the guitar over in the case and look again. All 10 fingers should be in the same position.

3) If you remove all tension from the 8th string raise by unscrewing the nut or barrel - remove tension entirely from the equation so it doesn't raise the 8th string at all when you use the lever -- is it possible to make the 4th string raise to F, then return to E correctly? I think you're saying that it will return sharp, even in that situation where there is no 8th string involved, right?

There's no point in adding back the 8th string until we can get the 4th string by itself to work correctly. So let's remove all tension on the pull train for that 8th string to do future tests because having it in the mix may be confusing the issue.

In watching your video, it looks like the 4th string will not return to E after using the lever because something is sticking or binding: at 0:15, you had to pull the lever far to the right to get the string to lower in pitch. This is not normal behavior for a raise... you shouldn't have to wiggle the rods to have the note return! This makes me think that something in the pull train or the changer itself is not moving freely (it could be a sticky knee lever, a pull rod is rubbing somewhere, the pull rod's threads are rubbing and grabbing onto the lip of the changer hole, or the changer finger itself is sticky on that 4th string).

It could be any of those things that is sticking, so we need to test each one individually. Let's start with the changer.

To test the changer finger to see if it is sticking (and isolate it from the rest of the pull train), use a screwdriver or pen or something to push on the 4th string raise finger (so you'll be pressing on the metal somewhere near the tuning nut). Try to manually raise the note to F by pressing on the changer, then release pressure to see if it will return to E. Please report the results and we'll move forward from there.

Johnie King · From: Tennessee, USA

This is so cool lots of help from forum members.

Erik Roos · From: Sweden

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