Why the great ones sound great

Dave Stroud · From: Texas

Lately, I've been revisiting the topic of what makes iconic all-pull steel guitars sound so good. I think I've learned a lot since I initially began my search. Thereâ€™s quite a bit of misinformation in past threads that led me down wrong paths... the forum is filled with speculation on why the great steel guitars sound the way they do.

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, but I have arrived at a few conclusions after many hours of research and observation. These ideas haven't been thoroughly expressed on the forum yet (at least, not that I've found). I think it's important to discover and establish the true factors that distinguish spectacular-sounding steels from average-sounding ones. I can't speak for others, but it was only the best-sounding steel guitars that got me into the instrument in the first place- none of the average-sounding ones inspired me.

Many people make vague statements like, "it's the sum of all parts", as if there's no way of determining how to get good results. Unless there are any magical-unicorn steels out there, I disagree with this. This is an issue regarding design, and there are many parts of a steel guitar that I would argue have no impact on tonal qualities. The "sum of all parts" is an exact recipe to an exact make- not the answer to why the great ones sound great. Ok- letâ€™s get into it...

One popular idea is that certain pieces of a steel guitar should act as one to increase vibrations, and this process creates a superior tone. There are varying ideas on what these pieces are... thatâ€™s where the partial truth is. Some people think vibrations occur in some silly path, like from the string, to the changer finger, to the scissor finger, to the body, back through the changer finger, then straight to the moon and back. This canâ€™t be true because the best steel guitars have more sustain. If the stringâ€™s energy is lost to parts that arenâ€™t heard by the pickup, then itâ€™s lost sustain. Centralizing as much of that energy as possible to the neck will cause it to ring longer, and increase sustain. So, how is this done? Assuming this is all true, I have at least one thought.

Looking at the Franklin changer, it seems to be designed with one thing in mind- decoupling the mechanisms underneath from the â€œguitarâ€ parts on top (neck, roller nut, key head, body). This is accomplished by minimizing the amount of contact between the changer fingers and the scissors. The sustain increases and the tone sweetens because the scissor fingers arenâ€™t absorbing the vibrations from the changer fingers. The neck resonates more, and the vibrations are distributed throughout the entire body much better than if scissor fingers were stealing it. This resonance of the entire instrument isnâ€™t the goal â€“ itâ€™s just a side effect of a happy guitar. The goal to let the â€œguitarâ€ part of the instrument act as independently as possible from the mechanical side. Other steel guitars Iâ€™ve had donâ€™t do this (in fact, they seem to do the exact opposite) and I think it makes a major difference.

My wife has a cast-aluminum lap steel from Todd Clinesmith. It has such a sweet tone, and the sustain is incredible- better than most pedal steels. The best pedal steels are designed at the changer end to preserve this as much as possible. I havenâ€™t seen the Infinity changer, but Iâ€™d love to confirm if it appears to be designed with this idea in mind. In all my study, I believe this is the single most important thing that distinguishes a good steel from a great one. I bet many pedal steels out there could really come alive if the changer & scissor fingers were replaced with a better choice.

I have a strong feeling that the second/third most important things are using tight-grained, quarter-sawn maple instead of the more-economical flat-sawn, and minimizing the amount of metal surface area screwed to the body underneath. The most lively-sounding steel guitars Iâ€™ve heard and played donâ€™t have cross rods attached to 2 Â½â€wide plates down the length of the guitar. This choice is completely in line with seeking to de-couple the â€œguitarâ€ parts from the mechanical parts. At least one of my other steels had flat-sawn wood. It was less lively, but Iâ€™m sure some portion of that is due to the changer design.

I donâ€™t think casted vs machined endplates makes a big difference in sound. Casted vs machined necks might make a difference- many of the Franklin guitars have machined necks and that reportedly has little influence, but I know Todd Clinesmith found a major improvement in casting his aluminum lap steels instead of machining. If I remember correctly, he said the sustain was superior in casted. After receiving one of his instruments, I tend to trust his opinion. I can tell he is very concerned with great tone.

I'm interested in what others think. That is- unless you're like my grandpa who bought a stratocaster, then traded it in for a telecaster and couldn't tell a lick of difference in sound... Rolling Eyes

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

You've identified a lot of parameters there Dave, but I reckon they're all second-order effects at most.

Tone is not just the sound of a single string or chord vibrating, but the effect of moving between those collections of sounds. As Pablo Casals said, "Playing the cello is easy. The only hard part is getting from one note to the next." The great steel players control these transitions so that the melodic line always pleases and never sounds deficient. In short, they know when to stop the notes as well as start them. A great instrument helps, of course.

Our guitarist brought his Tele to rehearsal instead of his Strat. He asked me what I thought and I told him it played the same chords as the other one.
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Dave Stroud · From: Texas

Playing technique is very important, but I'd be surprised if any session player said these were second-order effects... this is the "life" of the instrument.

I'm not saying non-session players' opinions don't matter, just that this topic is more than theoretical - the benefits are recognized by many. I do appreciate your thoughts though, Ian.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Maybe "second-order" is wrong terminology. I was trying to say that none of these details makes a detectable difference on their own, but of course their cumulative effect is real.

What I do believe is that you should always have an instrument that's better than you are. I know I do!
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

(Post removed by request)

Marty Broussard · From: Broussard, Louisiana, USA

Makes me wonder what Tommy Youngâ€™s mod(s).... are all about. Obviously, there wasnâ€™t any wood bodies being changed. Wish I had the time to dig into this topic.
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"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin

Jimmie Hudson · From: North Carolina, USA

The most important part of the sound of a pedal steel guitar is the one sitting behind it playing it.

Kelcey ONeil · From: Sevierville, TN

I think I can at least be on board with the notion that the changer finger design is probably the most critical component: the other factors are dependent upon their relationship to the changer. The pivot geometry and the material of the string finger are no doubt a major factor in the tone of the greats. The simplicity of those designs (think of the original sho bud professionals) kept their mechanical efficiency(as in transferring vibrations) as close as possible to the pull release and push pull designs of the time. The more â€œstuffâ€ is added, the tone often decreases proportionately. The point of a good is instrument is to provide the clearest path to producing the players music; whatever that diminishes that the least is the better instrument, if not the better machine.

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

I am curious how Franklin's "decouple" the finger from the scissors - I don't live where I see any pedal steels (well, I've seen one here besides the ones I've owned). Can you take pictures (or find pictures) that show the aspects you are discussing?

Also how did you conclude which models are superior in tone?Obviously, many people feel Franklin is the premium all-pull brand from past years (and their prices support this). How do they compare to Ross's Sierras, since I think he's done some study on maximizing tone and sustain? A number of top players of late have been using MSA's - where do they stack up? And I don't think there is a steel guitar made that doesn't have half the people who own one ready to declare it the best sounding brand ever.
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Marty Broussard · From: Broussard, Louisiana, USA

With ALL respect to any post submitted earlier, some of the greats DID have requests from the various manufacturers to help enhance their touch/tones:
-As I understand it Buddy MIGHT have had the E66 Pup made for a particular guitar he was playing AT that time
-Buddy MIGHT have brought a particular brand of guitar to Paul SR. and asked him to make it sound AND sustain like a PP
- Hal MIGHT have nudged the Emmons Company into building an all-pull guitar that had a longer key head than the original LeGrande to help attain what he was looking for...hence the Lashley LeGrande
-heck, Paul just commented recently that at least one of his dual pup guitars has a sliding rail.... which way??....you can bet that itâ€™s there in whatever design to accommodate his needs.... and HE IS the BENCHMARK for all that is pedal steel right now....he even stated that several experiments were conducted from the 60â€™s etc... HE IS IN THE â€œKNOWâ€œ.... the rest of us are just speculating....
- before I recently purchased my first PP a well known player told me that heâ€™d owned PPâ€™s that were â€œdawgsâ€ no matter what he tried...
-Iâ€™ve even read or heard that Jim Palenscar and Tom Bradshaw conducted Wave Spectrum Analysis readings on several guitars only to find that some guitars of the same model/brand varied more than the difference between brands.....
-I canâ€™t remember how Tom explained it to me, but he did insert the changer etc from one manufacture to another in more than one guitar and NO OnE could tell the difference.
-and we still have my first post about Tommyâ€™s mod(s)..whatever they were...
-I know from my real job that physics can be utilized in several ways ....so Iâ€™m very open minded and interested in this topic

Iâ€™m NOT trying to be adversarial at all. I just think that there are REAL pieces that are STILL unknown or NOT.....

-maybe Iâ€™m just frustrated and setting myself up to be flamed, but Iâ€™m exhausted... I certainly donâ€™t expect a manufacturing company to relinquish their secrets...hell, thatâ€™s how I make my REAL living,
It would be nice to stop speculating and have the full knowledge, but I donâ€™t expect it all to come to the surface ...
-no doubt that a REAL player can make a â€œdawgâ€ sound good but a REAL player can make an awesome axe sound even better...

My rant is over....
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"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Marty, that wasn't a rant, just the plain truth. As Jimmie says, the most important factor is the player and the other factors are way too complicated to pin down.

No-one is exactly sure how concrete cures or beer ferments, but we still construct flyovers and get drunk.
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Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Find a way to make any PSG work to get from point-A to point-B. PSG's have musical personalities. Each guitar is different in the way it projects tone, sustain and etc. During a conversation at a Mississippi steel show with John Hughey, we were talking about guitars. He said it's the player sitting behind the guitar but the guitar needed to be built good. The mods by Tommy Young do enhance the sound, sustain, etc. on any guitar a players unhappy with or simply wants an upgrade. Try a modded guitar and then one w/o a mod. TY's personal D-10 Mullen is a bad boy. Best sounding PSG I've ever played !!!

Dave Stroud · From: Texas

I'd appreciate it if people would refrain from making comments suggesting this topic isn't worth discussing. This is a forum for every aspect of steel guitar. Let us be nerds and figure stuff out. Thanks.

It's important to limit speculation because hard-cold facts are more productive. I'd love to compare an Infinity with my Franklin. They seem to be very simlar with some key differences. I understand this can be difficult, as it involves some gray area in divulging critical information. However, I feel like this information should be fair-game for home builders like myself because the designs are fairly old and the companies are no longer in production.

Marty, I've had conversations with sources I trust that suggest Buddy wasn't the best builder even though he was an incredible player. I wouldn't personally trust much advice he reportedly had in the building department... Keep in mind I don't have much info on how involved he was in the building process of Emmons guitars, but that info is somewhat irrelevant to me. I think there are steel guitars than generally sound better than Emmons. I tend to favor steel guitars in the vein of Franklins and Infinity, and with the possible exception of the Rittenberry, this type of steel isn't being made today.

Dave Stroud · From: Texas

I'll stop saying a certain sound is "better" or "worse", since I don't honestly agree with that. Most materials are fair-game in instruments, and the world needs different sounds. For this discussion, my aim is for tone characteristics resembling Shobud/Franklin/Infinity.

Last night I dusted off my old D10 Fessenden and put it on the work bench.

I took off the C6 changer and removed only the scissor fingers. I left E9 changer alone. After making sure the necks were screwed down the same, I strung up both necks with brand-new E9 strings to compare them. The changer fingers without scissor fingers rested on the body by a small, single edge.

There was a clear difference in resonance. The neck without scissor fingers took a step towards how my Franklin sounds- rounded, with more dimension and character.

However, I discovered an issue with my original assumption. After removing the scissor fingers from the Fessenden, I could see that the contact between the changer finger and scissor finger is designed differently, but it is also not very much.This means my initial idea is somewhat flawed. The difference I found in resonance and tone could be due to other factors, but it was a fun experiment anyways. I was able to explore a few other differences though.

A few facts:

The Fessenden has a 1/2" pivot pin, 3/4" wide fingers. The fingers rest in a comb-style stop plate as shown in the pictures. Center of pivot is closer to end of body (~2 in.).

Franklin has a 5/8" dowel pin (I believe 4140 steel), 3/4" wide fingers, and a flat non-comb stop plate. Center of pivot is further from end of body (~ 2 in.). Infinity lengthened this particular dimension even more (possibly ~2.5 in. judging from online pics).

Some speculation:

Isn't is interesting that the outside diameter of the changer fingers is the same? The aluminum wall thickness must make a big difference.

The Clinesmith cast-aluminum lap steel bridge has about 0.1 inch of string contact on the protruding part of the bridge, which is about 1/16" in wide & deep. The aluminum Franklin fingers have a wall of 1/16".

On a side note, the Fessenden fingers appear to be 6061, or some alloy softer than the 2024 used on the Franklin. There's noticeably more wear on the Fessy fingers due to the softer material.

Marty Broussard · From: Broussard, Louisiana, USA

Dave,
Youâ€™re taking your experiment further than I had time to do. The length I was able to go was comparing an Emmons SKH, Lashley LeGrande, and a Derby. I stumbled onto the experiment because a friend told me to take his Derby and hear the tone and sustain. I noticed it immediately. I only had the SKH to compare it to so I bought the LL and compared them. There was a different tone between the Derby and LL but similar sustain. That prompted me to doing patent searches and I discovered that the LL was a completely different changer finger assembly than the SKH assembly, BUT similar to the Derby assembly. If I recall correctly the Derby patent even claimed that their assembly was unique because it was conducive to creating more sustain.
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Marty Broussard · From: Broussard, Louisiana, USA

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I personally think this is an interesting and worthwhile discussion. I get so tired of everybody saying it's all in the hands. Well, it's not. It's a combination of a lot of things.

I dunno how many aspects of pedal steel that create amazing tone were by design nor how many were happy accidents. I do know that they don't all sound the same and I think that is what you guys, Dave and Marty, are examining here.

I'm hoping to learn something even if not practical for me to implement but useful just the same. I'm listening with big ears.

Marty Broussard · From: Broussard, Louisiana, USA

@Dave,
Do you have access to a PMI analyzer? For those that arenâ€™t aware this is a Positve Material Indentification tool that identifies the material makeup of a metal object. If you have the intestinal fortitude to continue your research I think youâ€™ll need that tool.

Long ago:
I was hoping to tear down a particular guitar that produced tones that I really liked. I bought an identical one That didnâ€™t have â€œthatâ€ thing so I could and see if the materials matched. That would have left only the body as the difference. Again, due to time constraints I didnâ€™t get it done and practically gave away both guitars.

Good luck and Iâ€™ll be anxiously watching this topic.
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"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin

Bob Russell · From: Virginia, USA

[quote="Jerry Overstreet"] <I personally think this is an interesting and worthwhile discussion. I get so tired of everybody saying it's all in the hands.>

I'm with you there, Jerry. If anyone thinks it's not worth discussing, nobody's forcing them to read the thread... or participate in it...

Dave's been willing to put a lot of time and thought and effort into exploring whether or not there are certain common factors in construction which contribute to better tone and which, once identified, might be dependably reproduced, and I think it's an interesting premise. Others seem to agree.

True, if "the hands" aren't pro-level, the sound won't be pro-level, no matter how many pulls you have or what species of old-growth hardwood your cabinet is or how long your custom-weight unobtainium bar was marinated in unicorn tears. But there are an *awful lot* of players with pro-level hands who seem to feel that the quality of the instrument somehow plays a big part. Paul Franklin could no doubt make a Red Baron sound great... but I've never seen him playing one on a show anywhere... just sayin'.

ANY discussion that might result in information leading to the improvement/advancement of the instrument is worthwhile. Seems especially appropriate in a group of steel guitar enthusiasts.
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Jimmie Hudson · From: North Carolina, USA

For best tone and sustain on a pedal steel guitar you must use a good wood for the cabinet. For me I choose to use Maple or Mahogany on most builds.
The maple is just a little brighter sound than the mahogany.
Also on the changer. Keep it a simple as you can.
Less parts the better on the changer.
That is why I build more of the single finger pull release guitars. They sound better to me and sustain longer as well.
The tone on the pull release changer is far better than any all pull changer in my opinion.
The gauge of the strings can make a big difference in sound also.
The player makes the most difference in the sound of any instrument.
I have built guitars and played them thinking they sound good. Then ship it to the customer and get a sound clip of them playing the guitar and wonder why it sounds so much better when they play the guitar. Well they are a better player is why it sounds better.
A pedal steel guitar is like Golf. To be good at it.
Apply the KISS method. Keep it simple Stupid. That is what a golf professor told me when I was in golf school.
And I am not calling anyone Stupid here. Just using the line to make the point. Simple is better.

Ron Shalita · From: California, USA

Itâ€™s all in your hands and volume pedal... ever wonder why Curley Chalker sounded so good on the early MSA that he played .. everybody said that those guitars were harsh sounding... BUT not in Curleys hands .. what about Buddy not playing a push pull anymore? hmmm just maybe it is more about marketing than just sitting behind it and REALLY learning it .. take from someone that has spent WAY too much ! but I have to say I have loved ever PSG and amp that have owned ...
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Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

I'm rushed for time, but would like to add what a fine topic and the intelligent contributions by all.

I'd like to clarify a couple of references to me. I have never performed "Wave Spectrum Analysis," but sure wish I knew how, knew what it might reveal, and had done it. Maybe my friend, Jim Palenscar, has and will reveal what he learned.

Next, I have replaced the running gear and changers in two Emmons push/pull guitars, both with MSA changers and undercarriages. In both there were no difference in the tone (which was great) in both, before or after the conversion. The tone was in their 17,250-ohm pickups as I will reveal here.

In one of the Emmons guitars a friend proved to me that this was so, then talked me out of them. He installed them in a newly purchased all-pull Emmons he bought from Ron Lashley. Here's how it happened. He had listened to the tone of one of the guitars before I restructured it. He was so impressed with its tone that he ordered a new LeGrande from Ron Lashley. After receiving it, he called and said its tone wasn't what he had heard from my push/pull. I explained to him that I had completed the re-do and it now had MsA undercarriage and changer in it. I told him it didn't sound any different that the original Emmons (before the re-do). He visited me and brought his new Emmons. He set up both guitars in my kitchen, as well as his own amp for the comparison. There was no doubt that the old Emmons guitars were superior in tone.

He begged me to allow him to take the pickups out of my restructured Emmons and install in his new LeGrande. He promised to put them back in my guitar. I reluctantly agreed.

Later when he had completed the swap, he brought both guitars back and again, setting them up back in my kitchen. He used his same amp for the comparisons. There was a dramatic difference in the tones of both guitar, with the pickups from my Emmons guitars proving to provide the incredibly beautiful sound as they had done before the swap. Well, you know the "rest of the story": He talked me out of those pickups!

I was so impressed with those "1725's" that I wrote Ron (no email back then), telling him the whole story. In Ron's next product mailer, he mentioned that he was offering his "retro" "1725" pickups as an option in his guitars and as replacement pickups for anyone who wanted to buy them. The rascal didn't give me credit for the "find" and I plan to give him hell when we both meet up there.

In spite of my recollection of this event, there is no doubt that in my mind that everything about a guitar has some kind of impact on its tone. Yet, I feel that the hands and technique of the player can make almost any guitar sound good (or bad) or remarkably identical:

I'm sure someone can provide a more detailed story of Jeff Newman demonstrating to a group of his students that there was little difference in pedal steel's tone. He placed many of their guitars on his raised demonstration podium, then used one amp to play through them all. However, before doing so he had all his students turn their chairs around so they couldn't see him. One after the other he played through their guitars. No one could detect their own guitar being played and few could tell the difference in the quality of his sound from one guitar to the other. As was told to me, he said to the group, "It's all in the hands." I'm sure he included in his thoughts, "It's also in the technique, the style, the experience, the delivery, the....etc., etc.

Congrats to posters. A fantastic topic. ...Tom

Tal Herbsman · From: Wisconsin, USA

Marty Broussard · From: Broussard, Louisiana, USA

Tom,
I apologize for using your name in conjunction with the Wave Spectrum Analysis comment. Hopefully youâ€™ll forgive me and allow me to lean on my disclaimer about not having my files and posting strictly from (obviously somewhat flawed) memory.

Luckily, I did locate the changer finger file when I went to the storage facility earlier today and was able to substantiate that comment.

Btw, where can I buy some 1725 pups? I feel another experiment coming once I get settled post-Hurricane Laura....LoL

Take care and best regards,
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"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin

Marty Broussard · From: Broussard, Louisiana, USA

@Tom Bradshaw,
Tom, please tell us more:
-did you mill the changer side end plates on the PP to accommodate tuning the MSA changer fingers?
-have any pics?

-were the PPâ€™s BLACK?!! Sorry, couldnâ€™t help myself...LMBO!!!
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