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Topic: Light vs Heavy Feel Pedal Adjustments |
Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 3 Oct 2020 1:40 pm |
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I'm in the process of adding pedals 5, 6 & 7 back to my Mullen. I'm spending a lot of time adjusting things to eliminate overtightening and have re-read that excellent thread. I understand how choice of bellcrank position vs changer position vs pedal travel affects throw length of a tuning rod - which in turn affects overtightening, but what I don't understand is:
Is there a rule of thumb for how to setup pedals to be a light touch vs a heavy one?
Is it simply a matter of the longest throw possible results in the lightest pressure vs the shortest throw giving the stiffest pressure?
Thanks 
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 3 Oct 2020 2:00 pm
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That's pretty much it. It's basic physics. Longer throw equals lighter pressure, and vice versa. Set it up so it feels the best for you as you play. No one else's opinion really matters.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2020 3:13 pm
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| work = force * distance |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 3 Oct 2020 10:25 pm
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Besides obvious variable syou mentioned i.e. where pull rods go into bellcrank and changer fingers, there was this thread about mods: pedal length and where the pedal is tapped for the ball end connector
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=356443
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Al Evans
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 5:30 am Re: Light vs Heavy Feel Pedal Adjustments
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| Dennis Montgomery wrote: |
| Is it simply a matter of the longest throw possible results in the lightest pressure vs the shortest throw giving the stiffest pressure? |
Well, that plus the fact that the more strings you're pulling, the harder they are to pull. Not really relevant for 5, 6, and 7. But on my Mullen, I've got P4 pulling two strings on the C6th neck and three on the E9th neck, and it's a little heavier than the rest.
--Al Evans
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2018 MSA Legend, 2018 ZumSteel Encore, 2015 Mullen G2, G&L S-500, G&L ASAT, G&L LB-100, Godin A4 Fretless, Kinscherff High Noon |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 5:48 am
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The Jackson steel
Last edited by Johnie King on 25 May 2022 3:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 6:03 am
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Serval young pros that come too check out my steels I have for sale all play in there sock feet they want easy pedal action an short travel.
If you want easy an compromise with long travel you may get into a over cam situation
An create a sponge feel an won’t be able too feel your pedal stops. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 7:18 am
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The 82 Franklin D-10 I had (for 38 years) I would rate as medium on the pedals and easy on the knee levers. The mechanical setup (travel) was based on what Hal Rugg wanted on his Sho-Bud's and Franklin's and carried over to others. Mr. Franklin told me Hal wanted the setup with no slack or as soon as he pushed a pedal or knee lever he wanted it to do something.
I've compared the rodding charts (versions I have) of Franklin, GFI, Sho-Bud, Emmons and Derby steels. Most have, for example, the 6th string raise in changer hole 3 (for reference 1 is closest to the top of the guitar). Franklin used hole 1. Same way in the Franklin the 3rd, 4th (C pedal raise) and 5th all use hole number 1. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 8:53 am
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The laws of physics apply to everything in our universe, even pedal steel guitars. If you are comparing one brand of steel to another that's just apples to oranges.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 8:56 am
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Thanks for the comments everyone.
As I woke up this morning I was thinking about this from a different angle. I'm likely stating the obvious but it seems to me it's not just a matter of longest throw being equal to simply the longest movement you can get out of a tuning rod, but the longest movement you can get *once the tuning rod engages the changer finger*...everything up to that point is just slack.
Based on that it would seem to me the most important variable in the equation of bellcrank position vs changer position vs pedal travel is which hole you choose in the changer. In my understanding, that's the one variable that determines how far the engaged finger must move to accomplish the desired change. Since the closer to the body the changer hole is, the less movement is required to change the note, using the changer holes as far away from the body as possible should lower tension as they require the most movement to reach the desired note.
The problem with this is you can't just put all your tuning rods in the lowest changer positions. Some of your 2 half step or more pulls will never get there no matter how much tuning rod movement you can get and you'll run into overtightening.
At least that's the way I understand it...corrections welcome
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA
Last edited by Dennis Montgomery on 4 Oct 2020 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 8:59 am
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Last edited by Johnie King on 25 May 2022 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 3:29 pm
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| Quote: |
| It's basic physics. Longer throw equals lighter pressure, and vice versa. Set it up so it feels the best for you as you play. |
Yes indeed Paul; that is Truth.
Johnie points out some steels play better than others in that feel you just laid out; but here is why.
And NO; not many. When talking about an "All-Pull Split Finger" changer; that means you can PULL one section and it will Raise the string and you can PULL the other section and it will lower the string> well how in the world does that happen??? Ok Johnie maybe even you can understand this>
"PIVOTS"....>you have two sections that pivot in and out with each other and Pivot the top section to raise and lower. Ok Got it??
Now to further the ease to hard of the raise and lower; is ALL ABOUT LEVERAGE POINTS....> PERIOD!!!!
Paul Franklin Sr and Ed Fulawka were the top two best designers of a "All-Pull Split Changer" I've ever seen and worked with; far beyond all the other split changer designs and simply because of "LEVERAGE POINTS in PIVOTS"> PERIOD.
To help the poster; you pretty much NAILED it Paul; one must try and get the best out of the mechanism of his Steel that he has; cause that's the only one he can work with..ha...and after trying this, trying that...they will come up with the best feel for that instrument for them.
Now that is for the "AlL-PULL SPLIT FINGER" changer and johnie...like said: "Apples to Oranges"; that Jackson Madison is NOT A "ALL-PULL SPLIT CHANGER"...it is a Only Raise Strings(single finger) on the right and Only Lower strings(tension movable keyheads) on the left side> PERIOD.
The other Single finger raise changers like the early Sho~Bud Permanents and Marlen's and Emmons; you had to manipulate that finger to lower as in; "pull-release" tension; or "Push-Pull" tension....and those fingers did play very well with less tension; but when you had to use a mechanism to manipulate; that in itself created more tension.
I can go on and on; but I learned all this from some of the greatest mentors of the pedal steel guitar>
1. I got to talk to Paul Franklin Senior on the phone for almost 2 hours once; he was Brilliant.
2. Ed Fulawka Built me a "Blue Darlin" Fulawka and talked to me on the phone from Canada many times...he was Brilliant.
3. Got to talk to Leonard Stadler(Marlen) many times through the years(BTW; Mr. Stadler is the only one that has a Patent on a All-Pull Changer in 1980).
4. Talked to Duane Marrs many times; just quite the brilliant innovator he was.
I Love and Miss every one of them; they were all so kind to "the kid" Me;; and always said: "You sure are a Curious fella Ricky"..ha...(Paul Sr. is still alive; bless him).
Ricky
(These are my expressions and information from my learnings)
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Tom Campbell
From:
Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 3:59 pm
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And now Ricky...with all their knowledge and your building/repair experience...your in their league!
(This is a compliment) |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 4:29 pm
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I must agree with Jack, my Franklin D10 has one of the easiest, lightest and smoothest pedal actions of any guitar I have played or owned ... and it is still very precise! an absolute joy to play!
I also own 2 Zum Hybrids but the pedal action is a little "firmer" than the Franny ... but still awesome guitars as well.
Bravo Paul Franklin Snr on the design of the changer !!!
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 6:32 pm
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Thank you Tom; that is a super nice compliment.
....and don't worry; I'll be around a LONG LONG time as I still ride; workout; play; eat right; don't drink; don't smoke and being almost 60 years old; I will remain(mainly because my Dad said; no Davis has died under age 90 in our family genealogy).
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Lonnie Portwood
From:
Jacksonville, fl. USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 6:51 pm
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YOU THE "MAN" RICKY! BESIDES THAT, YOU ARE ONE OF THE MOST DECENT, KIND, AND RESPECTFUL GUYS I'VE EVER MET, A REAL SOUTHERN GENTLEMAN. GOD BLESS YOU, LONNIE
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Music is probably the most "spiritual of mankinds emotions, and when practised with a pure heart, can lead one into the presence of God, who invented it. Lonnie Portwood |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2020 8:26 pm
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Thanks Lonnie and never forget; when ever I'm playing anywhere, you are ALWAYS welcome on the stage to pic with me; it will always be my pleasure.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Mike Mantey
From:
Eastern Colorado, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2020 8:50 am
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| Quote: |
| The problem with this is you can't just put all your tuning rods in the lowest changer positions. Some of your 2 half step or more pulls will never get there no matter how much tuning rod movement you can get and you'll run into overtightening. |
Dennis you have a pedal stop screw that you can adjust to allow your pedal to travel farther if you go with a lower hole. It's all about leverage. The shorter the travel the harder it is to push. You can get to your comfort level and then adjust the pedal travel so you won't run into the overtightening issue. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2020 10:37 am
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Keep in mind you have another leverage point you can fool with, ie the pedal axel pullers have multiple holes. They have just the opposite behavior from the changer in that the farther you get away from the body the greater the pull and greater the effort. This all works out with a guitar like a universal that has many changes on one string because it tends to make all the pulls on that string feel the same since the rods must be stacked and not cross each other. Moving a rod up or down in the stack for the most part does not change the pulling effort or distance since the change finger and puller hole selection have opposite behavior.
You can always add a raise helper spring to make a raise easier and alternately you can back off the the return spring to make a lower easier. However, this is finite in that the raise or lower won't return if there's not enough string or spring tension to get the finger to return by overcoming the friction inherent in the finger axel and scissor/finger contact point. Once again, eventually friction is the limiting factor. There are a few guitars that have attempted to lower the friction where the finger contacts the raise scissor by using a bearing, Infinity to name one. My U12 Infinity is real easy to play in fact. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2020 10:54 am
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| Dennis Montgomery wrote: |
| Based on that it would seem to me the most important variable in the equation of bellcrank position vs changer position vs pedal travel is which hole you choose in the changer. In my understanding, that's the one variable that determines how far the engaged finger must move to accomplish the desired change. |
The variable that most affects leverage is the slot in the bellcrank you select. You can really change the leverage there in a way you can't at the changer hole, so that's often where people start when changing the feel of the pedals/knees.
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 5 Oct 2020 11:14 am
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| Jim Pitman wrote: |
| Keep in mind you have another leverage point you can fool with, ie the pedal axel pullers have multiple holes. They have just the opposite behavior from the changer in that the farther you get away from the body the greater the pull and greater the effort. |
By "axle pullers" I'm guessing you're referring to what I'm calling bellcranks?
In the overtuning sticky thread it says the same thing; the farther hole from the body you select in the bellcrank the more rod movement but the harder the pull.
I think as Mike stated earlier, get your pressure comfortable first between the bellcrank position vs changer position. Then increase the pedal throw if necessary to address overtuning
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2020 11:31 am
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| Dennis Montgomery wrote: |
By "axle pullers" I'm guessing you're referring to what I'm calling bellcranks?
In the overtuning sticky thread it says the same thing; the farther hole from the body you select in the bellcrank the more rod movement but the harder the pull.
I think as Mike stated earlier, get your pressure comfortable first between the bellcrank position vs changer position. Then increase the pedal throw if necessary to address overtuning |
All true.
Axle puller and bellcrank and pull bar all mean the same thing.
I would think that very few steels need to actually have the pedal stop adjusted to get more travel. Not unless some prior owner misadjusted it -- but you have a new steel and Mike and his crew set that stop in the optimal position at the factory.
So, I think of the 'order of adjustment' as:
1) Change slot at the bellcrank.
2) If not enough love, change hole in the changer (in combination with the bellcrank change)
3) If necessary -- forced into it -- increase the pedal travel. |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2020 5:05 pm
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Some steels you can move the ball joint for easy pedal action some have three threaded holes too chose from. On the push pull Emmons it’s not a option you have too drill a new hole an relocate the pin 1/2 inch closer too the pedal board. Stock Emmons pedal left
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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