C6 fourth pedal

Ian · From: San Francisco, CA

My C6 experience is pretty limited but I'm begining to spend more time on the "back neck." I've got some different teaching materials - each with different copedants. I'm contemplating adding some new changes to my D-10: on the C6 I'll be taking BE's advice by adding the RKR half step raise to strings 3 and 7 exemplified in Basic C6 (and 1/2 step raise on string 1 via pedal Cool

. There is no mention of a fourth pedal but I've got it presently set to raise 4 and 8 a whole step, apparently a "standard" change though most tab I've come across indicates 1/2 step raise which Doug Jernigan achives by knee lever (Pu in his C6 book). All this cross referencing can be ... well, you know. How do you C6 players have your fourth pedal set up? What are some recommended changes that might vary from the Basic set up?

Thanks a lot,
Ian

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Ian,

The standard C6 pedal has not changed since its inception, ie, raising 4 and 8 a whole tone. But it is seldom used by most players. One can watch player after player who use the C6 neck play set after set and NEVER touch the 4th pedal. I have observered that fact for years. Jeff Newman once said, "It is the most useless pedal ever put on the PSG."

There are players who do use it however. Bill Stafford uses it all the time. I have seen Herby Wallace use it ocassionally.

I love it and use it probably more than most. I do not presently have it on my U-12. But I will have it one day on the guitar.

Used alone it gives an usual sounding Major 7th. Used with Pedal 5 changes the standard D7th into a D6th and is useful here sometimes.

One unusual movement I have not seen anyone do which I do sometimes is to use it in unison with the knee lever that lowers the 3rd sring a half a tone. Then let them resolve in different directions. Like we do 2 and 5 on the E neck.

There is a trend where some have removed this change all together and replaced it with changes solely on the E9th neck. The PF pedal lowering 5, 6 and 10 a whole tone is the most common.

Still others are putting the PF as pedal one and moving A, B, and C over one pedal each. Again doing away with the C6 pedal 4. There are a few like Paul who keep both. I find this makes the pedal very stiff for my tastes.

Although I have heard that the Franklin guitar can have 6 or 7 pulls with little increase in stiffness. (A fact I have great difficulty with, but I will accept it cuz PF said so).

Jimmy Crawford once had a real odd change on the 4th pedal on his C neck. He was pulling about 4 bass strings as I recall. And I don't recall what those changes were. It appeared to be an off the wall change. So I never fooled with it.

That is all I know of.

God bless you in your quest,

carl

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

If you don't and can't have the A to Bb raise on a knee lever.....I highly suggest using the 4th pedal for that. On my Sho~bud; I only have one knee lever working the C6th neck; so my 4th pedal only raises both A tones to Bb......and I need that one for sure; and much more than the A raise whole tone.....cause I do my Major7 chords several other ways.
Ricky

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

I raise the 4th A to B whole tone on RKR and also lower the 8th from A to G and 9th from F to E on the same lever which give a C major on the lower strings (5 thru 10) and major 7th on the higher register. This could be done on the 4th pedal as well.
Jerry

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The 4th pedal is good for getting "E9th" country licks out of the C6th neck. It gives them a darker timbre, because it's really working on a pseudo-D9th position.

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

i changed that ped 4 to Bb after reading previous posts concerning this matter.
it raises strings 4 + 8 1 half tone
(from 6 to b7) rather than the whole tone.
P4 down and rockin on + off P5 makes a neet dissonant thing.
Steel learn a bunch here...

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

You can get the same effect on E9 with Bobbe Seymore's new (trick) knee lever which raises the 7th string F# to G#. Try it out.......You have to have the A & B pedals depressed though.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 26 June 2002 at 04:32 AM.]

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I'm glad this topic came up. I am wondering what to do with my 4th pedal also. When I ordered my guitar, I had 4 left knee levers installed in the middle of the guitar working the C6th neck. Two going to the right. These two had the A to Bb and A to Ab changes, with the Ab change to the rear of the guitar. I have found it nearly impossible to activate the rear lever without having to move my butt back on my seat, so I removed the change and put the Ab on pedal 4.

I have not begun to explore the Ab change so any help would be appreciated.

I used to have the Bb changes on pedal 4 of a Sho~Bud I used to have.

My question is: Should I move the Ab changes to a lever and the Bb changes to pedal 4? Here is my complete C6th tuning.



   4  5  6  7  8  lkl  lkv  lkr  rkl rkr


D           D#


E        F


C                       C#        B   D


A  Ab                        Bb       B


G     F#    F


E        D#    D


C              B   C# 


A  Ab          G             Bb


F     F#           E


C     D        D   A

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

OOPS!! Edited 'cuz I had RKR incorrect.

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 28 June 2002 at 12:14 PM.]

Ian · From: San Francisco, CA

Thanks for all the replies. I suppose the easiest thing would be to raise the A's to Bb's. I'll be taking the Carter to Mike Cass next week for some adjustments -- perhaps he can make some suggestions as well. Thanks again.

Ian

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

Well for a slightly different take on this I have my fourth pedal doing the reverse of my sixth pedal ie: lower the high E 1/2 and raise the low E 1/2. I have tried both the C to C# change and the A to Bb change on the RKR and while I like them both I find the A to Bb (dom7) change more valuable.

Guest · Posted 27 Jun 2002 3:47 pm

That pedal is a waste of space. Put the boo-wah pedal there and forget having to swing your leg around. Think up something you like for #8.

Tore Blestrud · From: Oslo, Norway

I never used the 4. pedal, and moved the changes to the E9 neck. It is now my PF pedal.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

A lot of players are just moving that a half tone up instead of a whole tone so it is making a nice 7th chord.

Being right next to P5 it also gives a nice Augnmented chord with P5, very useful that way...al

Joe Miraglia · From: Jamestown N.Y.

I tune my first string G- My 4th. pedal lowers My E's 2nd. and 6th. strings to D- Use it alot with the 5th. pedal D7th. and also RKL lever C-to B-change and the 4th.pedal together. Joe

[This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 28 June 2002 at 08:02 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Hi Richard, I read your e-mail reply to me, so I have more of an idea of where you are coming from. Since you have playing this copedent for 25 years, with pedals 7,8 on knee levers, then any suggestions should work within the way you have set things up. You mentioned in your note to me that you were considering putting the 3rd string C to C# raise on the knee lever that normally does the pedal 8 (boo-wah) changes. If you find that you normally don't utilize the 1/2 tone dissonance between the 3rd and 7th strings with the pedal 8 knee engaged, then you might as well. After 25 years of playing, you would know if you do or don't. That would then free up the knee lever for the 4th string A to Ab lower, which is a much better place to put it then on a floor pedal. At least I think it is. It's hard to tell since your copedent is ususual. But since you have the A to Bb on a knee, it makes sense to put the A to Ab on a knee as well. As far as what you use the A to Ab for, basically is alters just about any of your normal chords, creating a Maj7, augmented, flat 5, #9, and other things, depending on what pedal(s) is pressed. Also, it greatly improves your ability to play melody lines since, IMO, the 3rd and 4th strings are the key places where your melodies are played. It also, in conjunction with pedal 7 (which is on a knee for you), and the A to Bb changes, allows you to hold a note in places while you move the lower register of you chords and melody runs. And finally, it help with your improvisation by tightening up your voicing between strings 4 and 5. To my ears, I like the sound of the A to Ab more than the A to Bb as far as altering your voicings. But that's just my sense about it. Anyway, once you put it on, you'll experiment and get some ideas. Best to you.

bob grossman · From: Visalia CA USA

It escapes me why someone would call the whole tone raise of the A's on "P4" useless. It gives a dissonant M7 which I personally like a lot, makes some good ending chords with the D string, and some interesting chords with "P5" and "P6". I think BE still has it on his guitar.

Probably, it is that most don't want more than 8 floor pedals and put something on that they like better or to copy PF's "P4" (tell us, the rest of you, what he does with it). Since you can use P6 with P7, then you can use P6 with P4, or with a diminished chord. Lots of uses.

Heck, use both feet. Chalker used that change a lot - and he used both feet a lot. His C to B lower was on the floor and he never changed that.

I would like some responses. I think most players go with the 8 pedal "standard" setup rather than putting on changes that should be there musically, therefore more pedals.

Bob G...not one of the great players

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Bob Grossman,
If you're NOT one of the great players, you're one of the great thinkers. Anyone who could tab out Four Wheel Drive as accurately as you did so many years ago earns my respect immediately. You have a tremendous ear and understanding of the C6 tuning. Kudos to you, my friend.

Folks, if you don't know what I'm talking about, visit Tom Bradshaw's website and check out catalog# BE-09 -- it's Bob's work and it's excellent.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The 4th pedal gives you a 3m chord in the root position (Em at the nut). If you have a high D string it's a Em7, which you can also think of as G6. If you have a middle D, it gives you a G6 that's very similar in voicing to the B6 position on the front neck.

I really like the standard 4th pedal. I wouldn't want to do without it.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I stayed glued to every facet of Curly's playing at most of the ISGC's shows he played. I don't ever remember him using both feet on the pedals. Maybe, I just don't recall it.

Course Buddy does it all the time and it is one of the most fun things and joys to watch of his awesome wizardries.

He can come off that dang volume pedal, stomp on one or more pedals, just as quickly move back on the volume pedal as though he had never left it. And all the while grinnin' like a cat on a slick tin rough, as if to say,

"EAT your heart out fellows"

Land sakes alive I do love that yungun!

May our precious Lord richly bless him and you folks always,

carl

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

You are right. Curly had the most educated left foot I ever saw. He has it down cold. His setup was such that he didn't need both feet down.
We know that BE has played both feet on the pedals many times. I know Jimmy Day did it on his C6th.(incidently he played a great C6 too).
I have played both feet on the pedals as when I started there were no knee levers.

But now we put P7 up on a Knee and use the C to B usually on a knee. So using Both Feet is not needed.

However,if one puts both feet down, he can cover more chords, instantly and smoothly, plus the knees and that is a lot of chords.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I saw Curly with Hank Thompson's band once (early 60's) in the heyday of HT. He was using a Fender 1000 with 11 pedals and NO knee levers. I saw him come off of pedal one with his left foot and go to pedal 11 as quick as a rattlesnake can strike.

And just as quick he would jump to another pedal (or two) without so much as an instant of time elapsed. His feet could dance across those pedals like greased lightning. It was the most awesome thing I have ever seen.

By the way he was using two Fender Bassman amps. First time I had ever seen a steel player use two amps,

carl

bob grossman · From: Visalia CA USA

OK, OK...

Lemme redeem myself here. I saw Curly play c.1965 or so and it was a Fender 2000, no knee levers. His second str. lower was on the floor (C/B)at pedal 9, I think. At P10, he lowered the first str. to D and the second to B also. Why? I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to ask him. With P10 and whatever his "P5" was, he got a 13th. It took both feet. He had a ZB set up the same way, although it might have had one knee lever...at that time KL's were just beginning.

MR. SINKLER

Aha! You've added the Maurice pedal!

MR. BELL

Thanks for the good words, but don't ask me to play it. At one time I kinda could, but never tried it with accompaniment.

bob grossman · From: Visalia CA USA

OK,OK..

Lemme redeem myself. First time I saw Curly play was on a Fender 2000 c. 1965 or 66. He had the second str. lower (C/B) on P9, as I recall. On P10, he also lowered that and the first str. to D. Gave him a 13 with whatever his "P5" was, hence both feet. He also had a ZB with the same setup (unless it had a KL-just beginning at that time).

LARRY BELL

Thanks for the good words. Don't ask me to play it. I kinda could way back when, but I never tried with accompaniment.

RICH SINKLER.

Aha! You added the Maurice pedal.

JEFF LAMPERT

Well, heck. I just like dissonant chords. I raise both A's a whole tone and like the bottom chord. I also like the A to Ab for the same reason.

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