annoying sitar effect

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Now, I've got nothing against the sitar. I thought it was great on "Norwegian Wood". but....

In another thread, Richard Burton wrote

quote:
I've noticed an annoying tone problem on the fourth (E) string on every steel I've had.
It's not an increase in volume, it's the tailing of of the note into an irritating whine.

My solution, which I've used for many years, but may not be applicable to the Fender 2000, was to put a thin sliver of plastic between the string and the changer finger, to shorten the decay of the note.

I have the same problem, especially after the note decays for a second or so. It's worst on string 4 around fret 8, but it happens on all the little plain strings to some extent. It's better on the Franklin and GFI, worse on the Zum and Sho-Bud-Marrs. Bruce Zumsteg says he has looked unsuccesfully for a solution.

A drop of oil doesn't help.

Temporary solutions include:

1. Pushing the string sideways (good for one take or so until it slides back.)

2. Sanding/polishing the finger surface with 1500 sandpaper, and a wadding polish. This may allow some hours or days of better sound, but of course you must be careful to keep what you scrape off from getting in the bearing. And you must be very careful to maintain a round shape lest you make it even flatter somewhere.

I think a smaller radius on the finger would be a better solution, but surely this has been tried and rejected, because all my steels seem to have the same radius.

I am reluctant to try Richard's solution because I can't find a really thin piece of plastic just now and I think it must spoil the sound.

Richard, have you any other ideas? Anybody?

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Adjust the drag.

[This message was edited by Jon Light on 13 May 2006 at 08:24 AM.]

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Earnist

I have had this whine as most probably have.
Recently I played with some other guys that play a much higher volume in a different room and it made it sound better.
amp settings, room acoustics, picking habits, I have had problems tuning then figured out I was sitting near a ceiling fan causing an out of tune effect wah wah wah wah
Remember a fine whine will get better over time.
P.S. Loved your work in Mc Hales Navy

Ken Metcalf D-10 Carson Wells

richard burton · From: Britain

Earnest,
It took me quite a while to find plastic with the right qualities, ie, soft enough to muffle the decay of the note, but not so soft that the initial picked sound was compromised.

Another method that works equally well, but is messier, is a thin smear of grease on the string/finger interface.

Please don't laugh, it really does work !!

Apply a bit of grease, and pluck the string.

If the string is too muted, wipe a small amount of grease off, and pluck again.

Eventually, you will arrive at a happy medium, with a nice initial string tone, and no residual whine.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Grease? How long does that last? Do you need a grease supply nearby as you play? It might be better than oil, but harder to find. Let me see if I can find some. Under the truck, maybe?
When I tried oil, it didn't stay on the guitar. It went from my hand to other places. My clothing looked better, but the wife didn't like it on the furniture.

OK, I am looking around the house for some thin flexible plastic. I dont' see any.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

The suggestion of grease does not surprise me--since people often suggest oil but since (machine) oil lacks the viscosity to address any but the slightest vibrations, grease does make sense. But why, Earnest, do you think it is worse on some guitars? Softer metal on the fingers?

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Thin plastic, like what the dry cleaning comes wrapped in?

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

richard burton · From: Britain

The plastic containers that Kodac films come in have about the right properties.

Barry Blackwood · Posted 13 May 2006 8:35 am

Earnest, Jon Light's fishing reel solution seems tailored to your sensibilities - I'd go with it.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I like the fishing reel too. I think Jon was just 'fishing' for complements on his easy string changer design.

I haven't noticed that problem on any new guitars. I believe there are two causes:
1. crud under the string
2. microgrooves in the radius of the finger

Whenever I notice that problem I change the string. B4 installing the new one I examine the top of the finger. I always rub it out with a pencil eraser. If I can SEE a groove I'll get a bit more aggressive and either use a typewriter eraser or a Dremel with a little buffing wheel and some buffing compound. B4 putting the new string on I'll polish it out with semichrome or a Blitz cloth. Sometimes those little grooves are REALLY HARD TO SEE. Run your fingernail across the finger perpendicular to the direction the string goes across it. You may be able to feel it even if you can't see it.

Crud under the string can also be sneaky -- you may not see it easily. I've found that when my guitar starts playing 'Norwegian Wood', loosening it and cleaning it and the top of the finger with a Blitz cloth then a clean cloth USUALLY solves the problem unless the string is ANCIENT. In that case, I'll break down and change the string.

As with all things pedal steel: YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Mike Ester · From: New Braunfels, Texas, USA

Jon, you have WAY too much time on your hands.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

How would you make the metal or plastic strip adhere to the round finger, so it doesn't rattle agianst the string?

Maybe we could paint the metal with something sticky that dries extremely hard.

[This message was edited by Earnest Bovine on 13 May 2006 at 11:00 AM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

EB. MY PIII after 24 years of hard use had been sanded, degrooved etc so many times that I finally realised that they were out of round and would no longer pull or return true.

All of the suggestions except putting dunnage under the strings are worthy for temp fixes.

Had I to do it over again, after "regrooving" it a few times after a few years it's easy enough to just replace the offending changers.

I got a couple extras for my poor old PIII and when and if I get time I'll put them in. It was only the B and G#s. I reckon my Marrs has a few years on it before it starts happening.

Also mentioned a while ago was that most "grooving" happens when something slams into the strings and drives them into the fingers.

Early on I isolated a lot my buzzing to the nut and foolishly peened the aluminum next to the rollers. It worked though. Then I thought about winding the strings so they pulled at an angle.

A lot of it is like "fret buzz" on a tele. It goes away at beer glass melting volume...

I have to keep myself away from my allen wrenches when I'm at home for that reason, and at the gig and stage or recording volume it goes away.

What's wrong with "annoying"?

EJL

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

if you are going to try to glue plastic to metal try elmer's ultimate glue,It dries really hard.

Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

Here's a thought: you could try a "tooth patch" or "bite patch" for a saxophone mouthpiece. These are made out thin plastic that is flexible, yet hard enough to resist being punctured by biting teeth. These have adhesive on the back, and could be cut to shape or size. They come in different thicknesses, and some are harder than others. You can get these at music stores that sell woodwind gear.

Or, maybe a little piece of black electricians' tape will work?

[This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 13 May 2006 at 04:49 PM.]

J Hill · From: Colorado, USA

Jon,

Yours is the best looking guitar I've seen on the forum. A steel w/o a reel is like a day w/o sunshine.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

This is not a problem for me. Unless I get a bad string or maybe lint caught bewteen the string and roller. I have seen guys use tape.Masking tape. Maybe Duck tape would work??

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

I noticed my G# 3rd string will get twangy, then it breaks. So I always change it as soon as I hear the twang & have never had a broken string since. It does not work the same for my low B (.3 Cool

it just sounds like breaking wind and breaks at the changer.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think what causes most all these problems are the players. They hear a little "buzz" (caused by a bad string, or a piece of something stuck under the string, or a loose roller-nut) and then they go to work.

Instead of just replacing the string a few times, to see if that will fix the problem (the easiest, and best solution), they work on the problem with emery paper, a buffer, or something else. In the process of trying to fix the thing, they screw it up for real, so that the problem re-occurs with every string they install, no matter how perfect it might be. Then, they try more sanding, polishing, even re-designing and re-machining, only to finally trade the (now totally "botched-up") guitar in a fit of desperation.

Moral: You're the only one who probably hears all those little overtones, buzzes, and whines, anyway. Your time would be better spent trying to learn to play, and not worrying about those thousands of "little quirks" that you think keep you from sounding like Buddy or Lloyd.

It only takes about 10 seconds of well-intentioned "fixing" to totally ruin a changer finger, and I'd advise resisting that temptation as long as you can.

Jimmy Gibson · From: Cornwall, England

Why has no other steel builder used the same idea that ZB`s used,IMHO it would solve nearly all the problems with the fingers having to be sanded and pollished.and i have never seen a ZB changer finger with a groove,and if one side started to wear,just turn it around,JUST MY 2PS worth.

JG..

Larry Petree · From: Bakersfield. Ca. USA

Jimmy, the very early ZB's had an aluminum top part of the changer. Zane really took a giant step forward with the stainless top part(half moon)of the changer.
Like you, I would think other builders would try that. Maybe they have, and found it hurt the tone. It sure didn't hurt the tone of the ZB, did it?

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Maybe someone could come up with a stainless "cap" to fit on the fingers. It should work ok if you bend it like an inverted "J" with a hole to go over the string pin/stud.Or use a piece of thin stainless instead of plastic.

Bill

Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

The fingers on my Sho-Bud look like they're chrome, they're really shiney....they don't look like aluminum. Chrome must have good tone, my bar is chromed steel and it sounds good.

David Wren · From: Placerville, California, USA

I'm with the idea of string fatigue (or some just bad ones from the package). I know that finger grooving certainly does occur, but there have been time when I have accidently overtensioned a string when first putting it on, and immediately there was Ravi Shankar!

Since I started changing the strings at shorter intervals the probelm has diminished for me. Would be interesting to hear from a builder on this.... must be a major consideration in design. I've noticed some changers on the newer makes of PSG have the rear of the finger slanted at angle, rather than a vertical 90 degree... this seems like a good idea, but haven't heard anyone on this forum comment on this design change?

Hey Jon, no need to tell you to "get reel"

------------------
Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

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