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Topic: Keystone style tuner buttons - why so unpopular? |
Brandon Schafer
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2020 4:42 pm |
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I know that people often replaced the keystone style Klusons on their Emmons PP guitars.
I tend to like the keystone style of tuner button because I feel like they’re easier to grab than the kidney shape ones.
Was it vanity that prompted the change for most or was it the fact the taller buttons caused some kind of practical problem (did they get bent when put in the case or what)? |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2020 4:58 pm
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I snapped off MANY"keystone"tuners back in the 80s...
...usually packing up when it was"late"...
The only place to get any in Nashville back then was Mr.Franklin's house...
"Mr.Franklin-I need a key for"Brand X"...he helped me out every time...he's a wonderful cat...
Good times...
SH |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2020 8:09 pm
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Brandon,
I loved the looks of those tuners on my PP, but I found that they interfered with my bar movements down at the first fret. I tried restringing the 1st and 10th strings but I always seemed to end up with some obstruction issues. That’s just my experience. I still prefer the looks of them vs the bean type. Ymmv
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Brandon Schafer
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2020 7:18 am
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I never knew they were such bad news!  These stories of them failing due to the extra height getting in the way sound terrible.
I was evaluating them on ease of grip and I do think they look cool too. Fortunately, neither of my Emmons guitars have them, but I had always thought it would have been cool if they did until now.
Additionally, I was considering putting some keystone style buttons on the Grovers I have on the one modern steel I own, but these stories give me pause.
I have learned a lot about tuning keys this week on the forum! I always figured Sperzel tuners were great because I prefer them on my six string instruments - apparently not for steel so much. I do have the Sperzels that turn a little harder than others on one of my PP guitars, but they work well for me so far for me and I guess I better hope they continue to do so since I learned no replacements exist.
I also have long preferred the look and feel of keystone tuner buttons on Gibsons, but it seems like those should stay relegated to the six string world too! |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 29 Aug 2020 8:58 am
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I take a different point of view here. There is no fundamental difference between the Kluson Deluxe tuners with bean-shaped buttons versus the ones with keystone-shaped buttons, except the button. I guess this is just from decades of getting used to them - but I would find a Fender or Les Paul Special/Junior to look pretty ridiculous with keystones, but would find a Les Paul Standard or Custom pretty ugly with the bean tuners.
My Franklin (made in 1980) has Kluson Deluxes with the metal keystone buttons. They do stick out more and are bit more prone to getting bumped, bent, or even broken, although I've never broken or even bent one myself. I much prefer them over the hideous Sperzels that many makers replaced them with. I actually got rid of one guitar because I couldn't find replacements for those stupid Sperzels - as we all know, the early Sperzels lock up and can't be either fully fixed or replaced. Klusons of all stripes are easily replaceable, work pretty well, and are my preference in most situations. I think the reissue Klusons are actually better as tuners. When I had a chance, I got a bunch of vintage replacement metal keystone tuners for my Franklin - I've never had to use one yet, but any issues they have certainly aren't a big deal. If anything, I think the later original Klusons are actually better than the earlier ones, as tuners - less backlash, tighter tuning, etc.
One thing that may factor into this for some people - many late-70s and early 80s Les Pauls and a number of other guitars from that period have Kluson Deluxes with metal keystone buttons. Among guitar players, I think there is something of a bias against the metal keystone button Klusons because they are associated with a bad period in the history of American guitar making. To my mind, the problem was not with Kluson! |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2020 9:02 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| I think the later original Klusons are actually better than the earlier ones, as tuners - less backlash, tighter tuning, etc. |
And I think the Gotoh repros are even better yet. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 29 Aug 2020 12:28 pm
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| Jack Hanson wrote: |
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| I think the later original Klusons are actually better than the earlier ones, as tuners - less backlash, tighter tuning, etc. |
And I think the Gotoh repros are even better yet. |
That's exactly what I was going to say. The Gotoh tuners are excellent, and they fit perfectly on my Emmons. No modification needed. The Gotohs have a higher gear ratio than the Klusons so it's easier to fine tune. It's a very noticeable difference.
I bought a set of Kluson repros when they first came out and I was not impressed with them. Hopefully they are better quality now.
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Brandon Schafer
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2020 1:30 pm
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| Does anyone know if the Gotohs fit on Emmons keyheads that were originally drilled for Sperzels? |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 29 Aug 2020 4:54 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| - but I would find a Fender or Les Paul Special/Junior to look pretty ridiculous with keystones, but would find a Les Paul Standard or Custom pretty ugly with the bean tuners. |
Ha! 🎸I have a partscaster that came to me with Grovers. I changed them to some Keystone copied tuners called "Tombstones" from a cigar box guitar supply house. I think they cost me all of $14 for a set of 6, but they feel and tune as well as the Grovers I replaced.
Actually, I don't think either fits the Tele headstock profile, but I can't hate one more than the other.ðŸ˜
I know I'm slightly off topic here, just wanted to show what these look like. Hope that's OK.
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 29 Aug 2020 5:34 pm
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| Brandon Schafer wrote: |
| Does anyone know if the Gotohs fit on Emmons keyheads that were originally drilled for Sperzels? |
I couldn't find anything that really fit on that guitar with Sperzels. Most people go with Grovers, but the holes don't line up. I called Sperzel - even talked with Bob Sperzel. He said he'd see what he could do, but I never heard anything, and to my knowledge, nobody else has had any luck either.
When I say 'reissue' Klusons - I'm definitely including a number of different makes that look like them and fit without modification. I think both the Gotoh Kluson-style and WD Klusons are a significant improvement over the originals. I have guitars with each and think they're both fine. But then again, I never have had trouble even with the old Klusons. There is definitely more backlash than with the best modern tuners, but if you know how to deal with that, they work fine.
But then there are some other Kluson lookalikes that superficially look like the original Klusons but have some big issues. For example, the "Gibson Deluxe" tuners that Gibson used for a while are actually die-cast and look similar from the back, but attach to the headstock like Grovers or Schallers, and use the larger tuner hole. That would be OK except the worm gear is held in by the rear casing, which breaks easily. I have a '61 Gibson SG Standard reissue with those tuners - one has broken already and I fully expect more problems - the metal is brittle and the casing comes off easily. I'm not sure who makes these, but they are a real pain. I'll take either of the stamped Kluson reissues by either WD or Gotoh any day. But to put those on my SG, I'm gonna have to find the correct conversion bushing. Very annoying. There is discussion of this particular Kluson lookalike here - http://diystrat.blogspot.com/2009/01/gibson-deluxe-tuners-and-why-they-suck.html
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| Ha! 🎸I have a partscaster that came to me with Grovers. I changed them to some Keystone copied tuners called "Tombstones" from a cigar box guitar supply house. |
Jerry, there's no accounting for taste. Hey, if you like 'em. But don't they weigh your headstock down? I personally like mini Grovers or mini Schallers on a Tele just fine, but the big ones give me fits.
Short story - I bought Tom Brumley's '69 Tele from Rolene almost 10 years ago. I love it and play it all the time, and it came with mini Schallers. They work great, and fit very nicely on that headstock. Of course, I had to try some period-correct vintage F-logo Fenders on it. I didn't want to dowel and re-drill the holes, so they were sloppy and they're really not great tuners anyway - the mini Schallers really are good tuners. So in the end, I decided Tom had made the right decision and I just put the Schallers back on, and that is the way it will stay. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 29 Aug 2020 7:21 pm
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Weight? No, not really. I can't tell any difference with those tulip style or the Grovers. I'm not crazy about either style, it's just how it turned out.
FWIW, I like the old 5/16" Fender vintage style machines the best on a Tele.
Like Brandon, I do like the looks of the Keystones on the Emmons though. |
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