Adding a center cluster to a Universal tuning?

Benjamin Davidson · Posted 12 Aug 2020 1:35 pm

Would you play a Universal pedal steel with a center knee cluster, or would it get in the way?

Would this layout foster a Single Tuning mindset, or further an E9th vs B6th mode split?

I'm seeing the potential for a lot of copedent options should I add a center cluster of knees to a future pedal steel. However, almost immediately Im seeing drawbacks. So I figured I'd ask the Forum.

We'll bracket the copedent as such as the LKR would be those odd changes only useful in full E9th tuning, and the CKL would be seldom used changes for the B6th mode - and that these two levers would be folded up and out of the way most of the time.

Pros:
-additional changes available for the B6th mode.
-freedom of movement between modes with the LKR/CKL folded up.

Cons:
-moving around the LKR/CKL levers to access B6th mode.
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MIchael Bean · From: North Of Boston

Since I look at the universal as one big tuning, of which I'm able to go in and out of E9 and B6 as the chord or line dictates, this wouldn't be possible for me. I also don't use an Eb lever lock for this very reason.

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

I have a center vertical on my uni, works great. Also, a center LR wouldn`t be in the way, would it?
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Jon Jaffe · From: Austin, Texas

I'm with MIchael and look at it as one tuning. I do not have five knee levers; I have four, as Jeff Newman taught me in 1979. I do not have a LKR. I lower my "E's" with RKR and do not use a lever lock.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I see the uni as two tunings in one (although with points of overlap) and I have eight levers, three on the left, three in the centre and two on the right.

It's like playing a lighter version of a D10 where you don't have to switch necks - win-win!
Smile

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Benjamin Davidson · Posted 19 Aug 2020 4:30 pm

I appreciate the feedback so far.

From a playing mindset, I envision the LKR and cKL being folded up in the undercarriage most of the time I play. Those changes would be a few dedicated E9th pulls on LKR abd dedicacted B6th pulls on CKL. I figured with the two folded out of the way, Id be able cleanly work between the 2 modes of play. For reference I lower the Es and string 2 to C# on RKR.

Ian, your posts were the inspiration for me to transition to the Universal. How combersome is it for you to transition between knee clusters?
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

What you say about "dedicated" (by which I think you mean less used) levers makes perfect sense with Emmons pedals, but I play Day so LKR is my F lever.

It's a little awkward to dodge round those centre levers, but I tend to pick a mode for each song and stick to it. I can reach the other pedals if I have to.
I use the A pedal sometimes in B6, but it's next to P5 so no problem. I sometimes use P7 in E9, but as I have no P6 (it's on a lever) it's not far to stretch.

Here's my setup split to show the two left leg positions.

So it's really two basic setups side by side. The CKV raising 9 to B# is not a typo. Nine times out of ten we use P8 just for that one change, and with it on the vertical I can do all B6 pedal combinations without having to use both feet.
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I had one old Sho Bud E9/B6 universal 12-string with a 6th-oriented center lever. I found it in the way most of the time and really annoying on a universal - it's one big tuning for me. So I just tightened up the screw so it would stay up and mostly left it that way.

To me, a center cluster makes sense for a D10, but not for a universal. I guess if you mentally separate the modes, e.g., using a lock - well, it's basically a lighter D10, as Ian says. But I don't. If I really want two separate tunings, I think there are a lot of advantages to two truly surgically separated necks.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Dave, it's partly musical and partly mental.

The band I play in has so far chosen material that points definitely to one "neck" or the other. Also I've only been playing a few years (about 7) and if I confine myself to the E9 and C6 basics that I've studied so far I can keep my head above water.

I do keep spotting overlaps so I dare say the two tunings will eventually fuse together in my brain. B6 is only a sort of E9 anyway, with a major seventh instead of a minor.
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Benjamin Davidson · Posted 20 Aug 2020 4:04 pm

Ian, that is effectively what I mean by "dedicated" changes specific to/less used in the other mode. Its interesting you have the 9th string change on the verticle. I shifted my pedal 8 to the forth slot and have the 2nd and 9th string changes only, and my pedal 6 changes are also on a lever.

I was worried manuvering around those levers would be awkward.

Dave I appreacte your point of view on this matter concerning the center cluster being more of a D10 application.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Those levers are a little awkward to get round, I admit, but it's my choice. I rarely change during a song.

Pedal 8 in the 4th slot is tried and trusted. I had it there on my first guitar (D10) and it made sense. But on the uni having A and 5 together is more important. There's nowhere to put the equivalent of the C6 3rd string raise to C#, so I use A, 5, and the vertical which is a natural movement.
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Marty Broussard · From: Broussard, Louisiana, USA

Iâ€™m glad this is being discussed while I am considering some options for a 10-string uni.

Question: since Iâ€™m looking at a 10 string Uni is moving Pedal 8 next to Pedal 5 as practical as Jeff Newman advocated?(thinking the â€œBoo-Whaâ€ move being unavailable)
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Two things. First, 90+% of the time we use P8 just for the 7th string raise to C# (in C6 terms). You still need that change even if you don't have the full boo-wah.

Second, you can't have everything next to everything else, so choices come in and 8567 is the second most popular layout after 5678. 5&8 gives you a useful 6th chord which is more attractive to some players than what you get with 7&8.

[With 5 down giving a dominant 9th (string 4 on top), slide back two frets and engage 8 and you're home and dry on a tonic 6th.]
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

There was an Excel S12U 8x9 at the 2019 Texas Convention that was setup like a D10 with an E9 lever cluster (with two LKL's, LKV, LKR), and a center cluster (LKL, LKV, LKR).
The Excel brand uses a 7-raise, 5-lower Changer.
I think a center cluster would be mechanically difficult on Changers with only 3 or 4 raise/lower positions.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

You can basically do what you like with an Excel, and I do!

I have the same centre cluster on my Williams which is 3 up/3 down, but I had to sacrifice a couple of things I have on the Excel, such as a traditional P4.
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Yes I thought that Excel 8x9 S12U would be great for a double neck player used to having a center cluster
I am not a center-cluster U12 player, but I enjoyed trying out that Steel.

Benjamin Davidson · Posted 23 Aug 2020 10:01 am

Thanks to all that have contributed. Its given me a lot to think about as I pursue expanding this out.

My intention was alway to pursue this enabling and fostering a single tuning mindset and weave between E9th and B6th modes. So a true center cluster seems contray to that goal.

I need to make some drawings on the underside. Sacrifice LKR, and instead install a CKV and CKR position levers (thinking sort or a double wide cluster). I'll need to draw it out. Swinging my leg under LKR as I have it now leaves something to be desired.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I have 2 LKV levers on my hybrid D6th. One lowers the 6th tone half a step like the Ab lever on C6th. The other raises the root tone a full step - a change I've always had on E9th. Only one of these levers is in the active position at any given time. It depends on the style of the song. I swing one down out of the way and pull the other one up into position.

In a way, I regret the added complexity. Neither of the levers is strictly necessary, but they sure are convenient in a few specific musical situations.
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Benjamin Davidson · Posted 1 Sep 2020 11:57 am

So, I have parts headed my way to add another vertical, and left knee right. These will be the last levers I can fit into the undercarriage of this guitar, so I'm working over the last copedent details to get the most out of them.

I will be rearranging some changes to different levers, my pedals are staying close to what they are now. My current LKR will be restricted to E9th only, and folded up under the guitar most of the time. There will be a time and place to keep myself in that E9th mindset, but for the most part I'm going to try to keep a "single tuning" organization.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Here's a bit of uni playing all on the centre cluster. (It's a practice track for our singer.)
When I'm on the top E9 strings, what sounds like the A pedal is actually P7. The rest is on P5&7 (which are adjacent - my home position) and the three centre levers:-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rlm3cxl4npli2f7/Steel%20demo.mp3?dl=0
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C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

You don't seem to have levers to raise and lower 6 a half step. That's crucial to what I was doing in the example above.
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C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

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Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Ian, nice playing on the link, especially for a guy who's only been playing for 7 years.
I'm a Uni player of 38 years (holy !@$, has it been that long?) and never considered playing the chromatic E9 strings while pushing B6 mode pedals.
Hat's off.
In B6 mode, the 1st string, F#, relates to the root but I rarely find myself incorporating it since you must reach over strings two and three to get to it. In fact I've been considering making my Eb lock lever (which I never use) lower the third string, G#, a whole step to F# independently just so I can have this note available on a string adjacent to the lower 9 strings - more like a C6 neck.

Benjamin Davidson · Posted 4 Sep 2020 3:25 am

Ian, great example of your playing thank you for that.

Mr. Dixon, I've looked over your Excel setup a bit lately, thanks for reposting that here for reference. I feel moving to such a setup will simply conflict with changes I'm comfortable with.

I had considered shifting to Reese's Bb6th copedent in its entirety, however its the same thing - too much change in setup (and mindset) and I'd feel like I'm starting over again.

I'm appending my draft copedent here:

Not too different than what I've been playing change for change, but the levers got shifted around quite a bit. I did pull some changes off the C6 pedals I was experimenting with that didn't work out as I had intended.

LKL2 restores the lower E9th strings for speed picking sort of runs.
LKR (which will be folded under the guitar most of the time) is a minor third raise I got off Mickey Adams.
P1 Franklin Change in whole (I've experimented with splitting this out, and prefer to keep it together).
P5 I got off Reese Anderson's tuning, and find it pleasing to the ear - but I need to study how to properly apply it.
C6 pedal order 8,5,7 with 6 on CKV.
P9 is an experiment, C6 pedal 4 down low, and a mirror of P6 on string 4, play this change in one register or the other.
RKR lowers E's and drops string 2 to C#.
RKR2 is another experiment, trying to sort out what I need to put there.

The RKR2 lever is something I'm still learning how to shift my position engage and not impact my volume pedal technique, its a tricky spot to have another lever. I may try to move it to a CKR2, but that will be after I mock up the under side and see how engaging that with my left leg will feel.

Any feedback is appreciated before I have this all rodded back up this weekend. (A daunting task in and of itself.)
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