U-12 Question

Mike DiAlesandro · From: Kent, Ohio

Hey All,

I'm not a Universal player, and I am redoing a MSA Universal. I want to set it up with the most preferred copedent, in particular in regards to which knee lever lowers the E's... It's 8x4

Let me know your thoughts, I am sure it will be interesting. Smile

Thanks for the input, here is a shot of the steel am working on.

MIchael Bean · From: North Of Boston

Since I learned on E9, I want to keep that comfort I'm having both my knees on the left. Even with my knees there I can get around pretty well on the pedals to the right.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

If you're starting from scratch, RKR works best as you have freer access to the B6 pedals.

Michael and I represent the main two opposing camps.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Nicholas Cox · From: CA

RKR is apparently easiest for U12 players. I found it not that difficult to switch knees.

MIchael Bean · From: North Of Boston

I did think about possibility having RKR for my E lower, but that would also force me to re-arrange the many things that I do with my right leg, over to my left, and that would be not worth it at all.

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

IIRC MSA's come with the E lower on LKR, and it seems most players prefer that.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Jeff Newman's 12 U copendent has RKR to lower E's. When I got my first 12 U I chose Mr. Newman's copendent since I always played "Day Setup"
After years of LKL lower E's, In Dec. 2017 I changed to RKR.
The weight of the Right leg going to the Right does not seem to take as much actual muscle force to keep the E's properly Lowered.
Which seems to allow better use of the volume pedal.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I find it very comfortable to play for long periods with my RKR engaged, as my leg naturally tends to lean outwards. It doesn't hamper the volume pedal at all.

One of my guitars (the Excel) has a lever lock but I never use it.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Dustin Rhodes · From: Owasso OK

I feel like all this discussion of how one actually plays the steel is overshadowing how pretty that steel in the OP is.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

I had one of those MSAs, "the Universal" I bought new. When Muarice put the E lower on the RKL. I have the 1 and 1/2 step change, ie B to D, on the RKR.
I think you have to consider what other pedals you will use it in conjunction with.
I use Eb, RKL with pedals one and two a lot to get the dominant 7. I also use the RKR with pedal one alot (6/7?). So both of those involve two different legs which makes it easier. It would be a bit more awkward if only my left leg was doing everything.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I play universal quite a bit, though not exclusively. But I think there is a general but not universal consensus among universal players to put the E-lever on the right leg. This is to avoid having to reach the right-most pedals with the left leg whilst holding it in, which is sometimes done for very long stretches in accessing the B6 side of the tuning. I think most players find that to be a very awkward and uncomfortable move.

There are even quite a lot of standard E9 players that split the E=>F and E=>Eb levers on different legs, and go with the old Sho Bud standard of LKL and RKL, respectively. For me, there is also sound reasoning for that. But I think E9/B6 universal gives an even more compelling case for the right leg.

I personally find the inward knee motion more comfortable for long periods, and thus put the E-lever on RKL. Different players obviously have different ergonomic preferences. But if I bought a guitar with it anywhere but RKL, I would be compelled to put it there, and always do.

Mike DiAlesandro · From: Kent, Ohio

Thanks for all the input. It currently is setup with RKR, which seems to be what the general thought was back when MSA was building these back in the 80's (I think...)

Here is the poll results so far:

Question #2 - If you used RKR to lower your E's, where would you put the D lever that lowers 2 and raises 9 to a D? LKR perhaps?

Also with just 4 levers would you prefer to lower your B's a 1/2 (The main knee lever on the B6th side), or raise your F#'s to G or G#, or whatever variant on that lever that you like?

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

The two levers I'd consider for the 4th lever, with the 3rd lever string 2 D#=>D=>Db and string 9 B=>D, would be either string 5 or 5+9 B=>Bb, or string 6 G#=>F#. Since they both interact heavily with the E=>Eb lever, they should be on the opposite knee, which in your case would force it onto LKR - even more so with E9/B6 universal since your B6 side is accessed via the E-lever. This assumes you have Emmons setup here, and thus E=>F is on LKL. And that thus dictates your string 2/9 change - RKL. I have my right leg reversed from that, but either works.

If I had two pulls for LKR, I'd rod both string 5 B=>Bb and string 6 G#=>F#, but only use one at a time by backing out the nylon of whichever one I wasn't using. I consider them both essential for my E9/B6 universal setup but could live without both of them together. I actually do this on my Franklin D10, which is just 8+4. One of these days it gets a vertical.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

If you are not going to do the 1/2 stop on the second string, D# to D to C, then I politely disagree Dave. I do not use a half stop on my second string. I use the 2nd string D# to D quite often in the E9 mode, and, I need to hit and release it fast so have never been able to get the feel of a half stop to my liking. I would always overshoot, ie somewhere betwen C and D, ha!
With this in mind, actuating both E-Eb lever and B-D lever at the same time will give you two notes (4th string and second string) that are dissonant.
I can't find a use for the B-D lever when in the 6th mode (Es flatted) in fact. Therefore, I put the Eb and D lever on the same knee, ie the right. I only use the D lever when in the 9th mode to get the 7th interval on the bottom which normally is always there on a standard E9 10 string.
To each his own though.

Slim Heilpern · From: Aptos California, USA

My personal reason for moving the lowered E's to RKL from RKR:

It wants to be engaged most of the time for B6-style playing and I wanted to be able to have both feet on the pedals when necessary. There are a lot more reachable two foot pedal combinations with RKL engaged compared to RKR.

- Slim
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

I agree Slim.
I was just looking through forum leader Bob's site. There's a guide there to copedents and a section on the universal variants specifically. I found mine under the "Sierra", that is Eb on RKL.
FYI:
https://b0b.com/tunings/sierra.html

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

There's no right or wrong way to set up the knee levers. You should try out different setups and see what you prefer.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Mike - I assume from this:

Mike DiAlesandro · From: Kent, Ohio

Hey All,

Thank you for the many suggestions and ideas and thoughts on this subject. I chose to leave the E lowers on RKR, and yesterday traded it and another Universal I had for a LDG and a Sho~Bud Professional," two necks for three necks "as my horse trading partner said...

Here is the Poll results so far,

Dave, thanks in particular for keeping this thread going! I vote that you put a vertical on your Franklin soon! Cool

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I've been playing Jeff Newman's U-12 tuning for many years. My Eb lever is RKR, F lever is RKL. I tune my 2nd string to C# and raise it D/D# and the 9th string (B to D) with my LKL. My vertical knee lowers the 5th string (B to Bb). I lower 6 and 10 (G# to F#). The 10th string lower gives a unique lower harmony note while playing wide grip chords while moving up and down the neck.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I have those same changes, albeit in different locations.

Tuning 2 to C# means it's automatically available in the B6 tuning, and squeezing up to D# in an E9 situation feels good.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

U also tune my 2nd string to C#. I raise to to S and D# on 2 different knee levers.

My E string raises and lowers are both on my left knee.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

deleted
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Frank Welsh · From: Upstate New York, USA

RKR on my Carter U12 with the Newman setup the guitar came with. This makes use of the volume pedal feel natural and easy for my right foot and gives my left foot a bit more freedom to access those B6th pedals on the right side.

That LKR lever presents enough of an annoyance in that it feels "in the way" when moving my left foot all the way over to the pedals on the right.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic