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Topic: Adding knee levers to Fender; Husband says No |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2020 8:09 am |
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
| The gliss curve of a cable pull is unlike any instrument being produced today. You can't make that musical sound with rods. |
Please explain. All a cable does is the same linear motion as a rod, except around corners.
Now if the Fender changer finger tops have a different shape, that would make sense.
P.S. I wonder what Bonnie did in the end  |
It's real. Once you've played a cable pull, you can hear it immediately on recordings. I tried to duplicate a Fender 800 recording on a modern guitar for a new recording of the song. I could play the same notes and even nail the tone, but that unique gliss curve was unobtainable. (I ended up using the original steel track, to the consternation of the drummer*.)
I think it's because of 2 things. First, cables have some elasticity that rods do not. Second, the yoke system of the Fender design makes the gliss curve of one string dependent on the resistance of the other. There's an interaction between the two pulls that makes them start and end together.
I don't think that the changers have anything to do with it.
*The finished recording is at http://quasar.users.sonic.net/2015/06/final-mixes/
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2020 8:15 am
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I've noticed that my Sho-Bud Maverick has a yoke pull system, and it also has a unique gliss curve. It isn't as pronounced as the Fender, though. That's why I think that cables are the real secret ingredient.
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 16 Aug 2020 8:59 am
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I have had guitars that use yokes, and the interaction between the strings gives a certain pleasant squishiness. I suppose the elasticity of cables can be a virtue rather than a vice.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Rob Rohde-Szudy
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2020 8:02 pm Re: Adding knee levers to Fender; Husband says No
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I'd add the functions myself. Pedal steel is all about getting it to have the functions you want to make the music you want, and it is still evolving. Those Fenders sound great, and maybe your way of playing one with added levers will be what changes them from a $2000 guitar to $5000, where everyone needs the "Bonnie mod". Steel players are hot rodders by nature. Do something cool and get us excited!
(Apologies to anyone I just gave heartburn to.)
--Rob |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2020 4:38 am
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I own 2 400's.
I installed a knee lever on both.
2 holes in the bottom ain't gonna hurt the value.
They are not a collector's item in my opinion, as much as I love 'em.
In fact I would have paid more if the levers had been installed by a previous owner.... |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2020 6:44 am
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| Michael Sawyer wrote: |
I own 2 400's.
I installed a knee lever on both.
2 holes in the bottom ain't gonna hurt the value.
They are not a collector's item in my opinion, as much as I love 'em.
In fact I would have paid more if the levers had been installed by a previous owner.... |
Exactly right...
The 800 I sold with 4 well done levers that were professionally made [Mike Yahl] sold for a lot more than others I sold that had no levers or "barn hinge" levers.
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Patrick Timmins
From:
Seattle
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Posted 24 Sep 2020 5:31 pm Fender 400 knee levers
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Does anyone have any pictures of Michael Yahls clamp on knee levers? It doesn't look like he has them listed on his web site. I don't mind drilling a few holes underneath, but don't want to reinvent the wheel if someone has a less intrusive solution.
I have only had my 400 for a couple of weeks and am super happy with the sound. I'm guessing it is a 64' sunburst with 4 cast pedals. Appears to have been a closet queen.
The cable pull sound is definitely there. I call it the "YOING!" sound, like a cartoon spring sound. Especially present when I stomp a pedal fast. The pulls balance similar to my ZB.
This is a really fun guitar. I just need some knees on it now. 
_________________
Microphones, Recording, and lots of pedal steel guitars! |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 24 Sep 2020 6:40 pm
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| Bob has posted pictures of Michael's knee lever setup here before, you'll find them if you search. I don't have a picture of mine, but I made a knee lever mounting rail for my 800 out of a piece of 1-1/2"x 1-1/2"x 1/8" aluminum angle, I mounted it at the ends only, inside the bottom of the frame where the rear cutaway is. I used just the two screw holes in the back corners where the body screws to the frame, replaced the stock screws with a couple of slightly longer pan head screws, no added holes (which was the goal). It worked perfectly. I needed a couple of extra pulleys to route the cables since they were coming from the opposite side of the body than the pedals. I just used some little screen door rollers from Home Depot, attached to the horizontal flange of the aluminum angle and to the center axle screw of the stock sheave stack on the key head end. |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2020 8:58 am
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See my posts in the archives...."Fender 400 Silverframe" dated February 26, 2014. Send me your email address and I can send you several more pics of the guitar. The guitar was a basket case when I got it....it was complete 100%, put was badly butchered with a vibrating sander not once but twice. I added 6 KL's and used 3/32" pullrods. I also added a Sacred Steel lock. The tuning is an E9/B6 Uni without strings 1, 2, 11, and 12, then detuned to Eb from E. I retained E9th string gages. I retained the cable drives for the 4 pedals. I also retained that fabulous Fender pickup, and retained the both the solid bridge and solid nut. Make no mistake about it, it is definitely a Fender!!!
PRR |
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Bob Knetzger
From:
Kirkland, WA USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2020 10:44 am
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I'd agree: adding pro knee levers that work well would add to the guitar's value. Crappy hardware store door hinges would detract, obviously.
If you want to deliberately go for the classic Fender sound, go for it.
If you want to play "modern" steel, sell it and get something else.
As to why these Fenders sound the way they do, I think the thick ash body + mag frame with single coil guitar impedance wound pickups is what gives them "that sound." The envelope of the sound is more guitar like, way less chimey than a metal neck and less "growly" than a humbucker on wood neck. The action of the cable pedals has its limits on speed, feel, and pull timing.
It's its own thing! |
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Patrick Timmins
From:
Seattle
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Posted 29 Sep 2020 12:37 pm
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Thanks Ian, Paul, and Bob.
I've only been playing a year, but this is my 6th pedal steel. I'm enjoying working on them as much as playing them.
I did find some of the older pictures. I will definitely hit you up Paul for the extra photos.
I get plenty of modern sounds out of my Sierra Session. Which sounds nothing like my ZB, even with a ZB pickup. The Fender just has that sound... After completely rebuilding it and making new springs for lowers last Friday, I got about 6 hours a day seat time that weekend.
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Microphones, Recording, and lots of pedal steel guitars! |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2020 3:13 pm
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Just wanted to chime in -
I have worked for a major vintage guitar broker in the L.A. area servicing and appraising vintage guitars and amplifiers; I still consult for him and some high-end guitar techs. I service and restore vintage electric and acoustic guitars, mandolins, resonators, Weissenborn style hollow necks , (primarily prewar) collectible ukuleles and tube amplifiers.
I have one Fender 800 on my bench right now for knee lever addition - probably the most popular modification followed by pickup addition.
I also have owned and worked on Fender pedal steels for close to 20 years and ran the Fender Steel Forum (until we closed it and moved it to an easier to access facebook page) I also wrote the Maintenance & Lubrication & Basic Fender Pedal Steel Cable Soldering guides that are in the files section on the Facebook page.
None of this is meant to brag; it's just my basic C.V.
Fender pedals steel guitars are fun player instruments - and The only vintage Fender instrument that can be modified without decreasing its value.
In fact, knee lever addition - if done well - usually INCREASES the guitar's value!
Many "guitar stores" hear about a 1960's "Fender Guitar" and tell customers it's a collectable instrument. That's because most "guitar store" employees have seen a pedal steel only on television and don't have a clue what they are talking about.
Simply, Fender pedal steels are NOT collectable or valuable vintage instruments and will never be even slightly comparable to 6 strings, 12 strings and basses (pus mandolins and banjos) as collectables.. They ARE projected to increase in value - but modifications such as knee lever installation, addition of additional pickups, extra screw holes in the bottom used for placement of Delrin or nylon cable guitar (to straighten pull at the changer)will not be anything other than "functional" factors in pricing.
Even refinishing - which reduces the value of the great majority of vintage instruments by 50% - has zero effect is done competently.
They are also very difficult to date properly - for example, serial numbers are completely random and Fender has no documentation other than the manuals and patents in their archives (I searched the document archives with Fender employees several years ago). If the OP's husband is still in doubt feel free to send me an email and I'll send you my phone number - I'm more than happy to discuss the subject on the phone - or even in person, and he can look at my own 8 string, 2 pickup 9+2 Fender 400!
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 16 Oct 2020 5:31 pm Re: Fender 400 knee levers
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| Patrick Timmins wrote: |
| Does anyone have any pictures of Michael Yahls clamp on knee levers?... |
Patrick - here is the first thread from 2011 with Bob's guitar: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1846400#1846400. I got my 800 about a month after this was posted and used it as inspiration. Michael posted a couple of times in the thread that he was working on making up parts kits to sell but I don't know what ever came of that.
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Patrick Timmins
From:
Seattle
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Posted 20 Oct 2020 4:46 pm
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Thanks Ian, Jim and Paul. Those images are really helpful.
I'm probably over a month away from completing the new shop and moving all my machining, welding and fab equipment over.
Looking forward to getting some knees on the 400!
The only thing that looks difficult to make are the stacked pulley washers that have a slight concave edge. Any one have a source on those or a spare 6 washer pulley block?
_________________
Microphones, Recording, and lots of pedal steel guitars! |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 20 Oct 2020 6:33 pm
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| If you have a decent lathe you can make them. They don't need to be super precise, they just need to move freely. I used metal screen door rollers, they are a little oversized but you only need a few. |
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Patrick Timmins
From:
Seattle
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Posted 21 Oct 2020 1:53 pm
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Thanks Ian.
We may be talking about the same thing? I'm asking about the 1.66ish " washers in the pulley block.
The thought of cutting washers out of 1.75" or 2" bar stock on the lathe is not appealing. Punching out of stock will be difficult to keep flat with the punch equipment I have (old manual 12 station turret punch press). I will see if I can find some blank large washers somewhere.
When I took the ash tray off during the rebuild on my 400, there was a date in sharpie and an inked inspection stamp. Not sure if anyone else has a date marked like this on their Fender.
_________________
Microphones, Recording, and lots of pedal steel guitars! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Oct 2020 4:33 pm
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| If you have a lathe, it's no big deal to make washers from a square piece of sheet stock. I'd use aluminum, since it's easier to machine, and wear would be nil, since there's only a few degrees rotation. |
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