Using Paypal For Forum Purchases

James Sission · From: Sugar Land,Texas USA

Actually, if your using the friends and family method to pay for goods or services you ARE gaming the system by virtue of the fact you agreed not to do that when you "signed" the PP user agreement. The company provided the option for a specific purpose which does not include making payments for goods and services. Here is the exact verbiage you agreed to when you signed up.

You must not use the â€œsend money to a friend or family memberâ€ feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services.

You can argue about it all you want to, but you are using a service (PayPal) and not paying for the service when you claim you are sending money to a friend or family member when your actually making a purchase. Paypal has been pretty clear on this subject.

A4.2 A "Personal Transaction" payment involves sending money (initiated from the â€œFriends and Familyâ€ tab of the â€œSend Moneyâ€ flow) to friends and family without making an underlying commercial transaction (that is, the payment is not for the purchase of goods or services or for making any other commercial transaction).

Bill McCloskey · Posted 10 Aug 2020 7:37 am

When I first signed up for paypal, they were pretty clear that if you had to provide a refund, they would refund your paypal fees as well. And then one day, they sent me a note saying, â€œhey, ya know when we said we would return your fees when you provide a refund? We just decided we arenâ€™t going to do that anymore because we want to shake you down for more money even though we are unbelievably profitable.â€

So no tears for paypal. Trust is a two way street.

Wayne Ledbetter · From: Arkansas, USA

Gentlemen
As far as Pay Pal is concerned IMO if you are using Friends and Family, it needs to be to Friends and Family. I agree with James about the comments he stated regarding Pay Pal regulations and also, there is a deeper issue there that I would like to reiterate, as well, and that is the â€œtruthâ€. Most of the Pay Pal transactions are for business. Yes, they probably make bookoos of money. But being â€œhonest -like the old days- about a transaction is more paramount than the legalities that are printed, which evidently they need. What was that ole saying â€œabove boardâ€?

Now for the part not relating to PayPal directly. Iâ€™ve seen and heard of several ( I say several lightly) transactions on SGF that the consumer was not satisfied with the description of the item and some have mentioned that the seller â€œjust blatantly liedâ€
about things. I am saddened as a revived steel guitar player that I see this happen and gives me pause with â€œ who can you deal withâ€.
_________________
Sho Bud Super Pro, Fender Twin Reissue, Martin HD-28, Gibson J-45, Gibson RB-250,Stelling Bellflower,Regal Dobro, Takamine and Alvarez Classical, Fender Telecaster, Peavey Studio Pro 112. Mainly played Gospel and some bluegrass.

Bill McCloskey · Posted 10 Aug 2020 8:42 am

Wayne, as far as "truth" is concerned, when I had my business, (which I sold last year thanks be to the gods) I used paypal to process and maintain monthly membership fees, which was the main source of income. They took their cut of each monthly membership fee, which is fine. That is what I signed up for.

and many many times during the 10 years I ran the business, I would have to provide refunds. People changed jobs, or more likely, they had an annual membership which auto renewed each year. Often they would ask for a refund, which I always provided. For a $200 membership, especially if it was overseas, Paypal would take nearly $20 as their fee (overseas gets charged at a higher rate). But paypal always refunded their fees if I provided a refund.

But years later, after they were completely integrated into my business, with no possibility of getting rid of them, without warning and with no grandfathering of old accounts, they arbitrarily refused to provide any pay pal refunds which meant that I had to eat the $20 for every membership I refunded.

Where is the "trust" in that? Of course, they also raised their percentage over the years.

Paul McEvoy · From: Baltimore, USA

I have zero guilt about taking friends and family. I do whatever I can to accurately describe whatever I'm selling. Multiple pictures, etc. If there is something wrong with it I do everything I can to describe it.

I usually do say that the sale is as-is, minus any damage in transit. And then I try to pack things so that's not going to be an issue.

In that case, I'm not offering a refund, and I'm not interested in an intermediary interacting between us after that's made clear. I've certainly received things that were described poorly and do whatever I can to describe them accurately. There is always a risk buying used stuff online.

In the old days, I believe, if you wanted to buy something online, you'd send them a check (perhaps even in the old days of the forum?) It's not like you could call the bank and have them negotiate with the seller if there was a problem.

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

"what they said" about buyer insurance vs risk and at the same time hating the fees even tho small. Seems Paypal never sides with the seller, always the buyer.

I find friends and family protects me, as the seller, from buyer blackmail and issues like mishandling after the sale or buyer remorse becoming my problem. Buyers cheat more often than sellers in my experience.
_________________
Sustainability is unsustainable

Al Miller · From: Waxahachie Texas

GUYS, IN MY CASE I'M FULLY AWARE I MADE THE MISTAKE OF USING THE FRIENDS AND FAMILY PORTAL FOR MY PURCHASE ! IN MY DEFENSE IF THERE IS ANY, I DID'NT HAVE ANY IDEA THAT WHEN USING THAT WINDOW OF PAY PAL THAT YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT OF DISPUTE OR ANY SUCH RECOURSE. THAT IS SURLEY MY CIRCUS AND MY MONKEYS FOR NOT RESEARCHING THAT . I TRULEY THOUGHT I WAS HELPING THE GUY OUT BECAUSE HE REQUESTED I USE IT SEVERAL TIMES IN OUR CONVERSATION OF PURCHASE. IT NEVER CROSSED MY MIND OR I WOULD HAVE OFFERD TO PAY THE FEES AS WELL IN THE PURCHASE PRICE .. ON THE OTHER HAND I WAS EXCITED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF OWNING THIS PARTICULAR INSTRUMENT. I'M SURE THAT PLAYED A PART IN MY DECISION TO ACT WITH OUT CHECKING FURTHER INTO NOT ONLY PAY PAL, AS WELL THE SELLERS HONESTY & KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT HE WAS SELLING ME .. AS I BELIEVE NOW HE HAD NO CLUE HOW TO EVEN TUNE THE INSTRUMENT MUCH LESS UNDERSTAND IF IT WAS PLAYABLE BUT HE OBVIOUSLY TALKED A GOOD TALK AS I FELL FOR IT ! BUT THE FACT THAT HE USED VERY RESPECTFUL NAMES ASSOCIATED WITH OUR COMMUNITY IN HIS AD WAS ONLY PART TRUTH AFTER TALKING TO THE MAN WHO HE ADVERTISED AS DOING THE WORK ...THAT STATEMENT ALSO AIDED IN MY WILLINGNESS TO PURCHASE IT FROM JUST SOME PICTURES AND HIS WORD. AS PISSED AS I AM RIGHT NOW I HOPE NO ONE EVER BUYS ANOTHER THING FROM THE FELLER BUT IM SURE TIME WILL HEAL MY ANGER AND ONCE ITS REPAIRED BACK TO A PLAYABLE FUNCTIONAL INSTRUMENT I WILL BE GOOD WITH IT.. AFTER ALL I WANTED THE GUITAR I JUST DID'NT WANT TO HAVE TO PUT IT IN THE SHOP BEFORE I COULD PLAY IT ! THIS GUY/SELLER WAS TOLD THAT STRAIGHT UP .. IF ANYONE QUESTIONS WHAT IM REFERRING TO AS NOT PLAYABLE I WILL GLADLY SEND YOU THE VIDEOS I TOOK WHEN I OPENED THE CASE ..
BLESSINGS
BOO MILLER
_________________
AL (BOO) Miller
Mullen D10
76 Emmons P/P
2022 65 Emmons Resound P/P D10

G Strout · From: Carabelle, Florida

I never use friends and family for a purchase of goods or services. If the seller asks me to I refuse. If he balks, I offer to split the fee. If he is a whiney cupcake and I really want the item I just pay the fee.
Paypal is a business and as such they have always provided me very good service for the percentage they charge.
I don't know how many of you were buying and selling on the internet back in the mid to late 90's but there were a lot of escrow services around. You would send then them the $$$ the seller would ship and when you received the item they would release the funds. Really high fees!!
I have been a member here going way, way, back. (90's)
In the "olden" days when we had 700 or so members I was very trusting but since the membership has increased I lost my trust in the "kinship" of steel players.
NO FRIENDS AND FAMILY FOR ME. (Unless of course, they ARE friends and family.) BTW if anyone has a Tremblay lap steel for sale 6 or 8 string PM me. I'll pay the fees.
gary
_________________
Melbert 8, Remington S8, Silk 6 string, Rick B6, Tremblay 6 lap steel, Marlen S-10 4&4, Prestige Guild M75 and Artist Award, Benedetto Bravo, Epiphone Century Electar (the real one) and a bunch of old lap steels.... mostly Ricks and Magnatones'

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

We don't have a Forum section for rants. Sorry.

I use Friends & Family to send money to my friends and family. I wouldn't use it to pay for goods or services. That's not what it's there for. Plus it's cheating.

Bill McCloskey complained that PayPal is no longer refunding their fees when you give a refund. I was disappointed by that, but I rarely use that feature. The PayPal fee for businesses like mine is currently 2.9% plus 30 cents. For international it's 4.4%. If you have to give a lot of refunds, I see how it could add up. For me, a refunded Forum membership only costs 45 cents (plus some awkward bookkeeping).

I never understood why PayPal refunded fees in the first place, or why they do Friends & Family for free. People can game the system for both of those things. I suspect that some sophisticated crooks were playing fee refunds against international exchange rates. That would be a good reason to shut down that feature. A business can only offer a free service if it doesn't cost them much out of pocket.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

Bill McCloskey · Posted 10 Aug 2020 10:58 pm

B0b, PayPal uses the float like a bank to make money. They make money on friends and family just as they make money on purchases because they hold your money for a period of time to make more money just as a bank makes money on money deposited. Just because you arenâ€™t charged a fee doesnâ€™t mean they arenâ€™t using that money. And to not refund their fees for refunds is unconscionable.

Paypal could charge no fees and still make a ton of money. They have access to billions of dollars to do what they want with.

Paypal doesnâ€™t provide friends and family out of the goodness of their heart. They provide it for the interest free loan you are giving them.

Bill McCloskey · Posted 11 Aug 2020 5:25 am

Here is an analogy on how paypal works.

Suppose I was a professional gambler. I set up a system where you give me money. I hold it for 3 days and then give it the person you want to give it to, risk free. I charge you 3% for that service. During the 3 days, I bet your money. I win some, I lose some, but the 3% keeps me in the black. And I have more people coming in to cover the losses.

Now, let's say I decide to bank my winnings and double down on the losses until I get back to even. In order to do that, I need an unlimited amount of funds. So now I set up a "friends and family" system. You give me the money and I won't charge you anything! Many more people give me money and let me hold on to it for 3 days allowing me to double down on every lost bet. So now, I have nothing but winning and no losses.

That is how paypal works.

Mike Scaggs · From: Nashville, TN

My personal PayPal policy is:

As a seller I accept PayPal Friends and Family. If the buyer doesn't like that option I ask the buyer to pay the fees.

As a buyer I will use Friends and family if it is truly a friend or family member. If it is a buy from a fellow forum member I will add 3% to the purchase if using PayPal.

That's just me and so far I have had zero issues.

Cheers,
Mike
_________________
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you

Zum double Hybrid 8x9, 64 Twin (JBLs), p2pAmps Bad-Dawg, p2pAmps Tremendous Reverb, Visit my website www.p2pamps.com

Mark Helm · From: Tennessee, USA

Dave:

Itâ€™s awful that you feel you got burned. But please be careful: the Friends and Family option is for just that: Friends and Family. Many of us on this Forum consider each other good friends. And some of us have known each other so long we consider each other family.

It seems to me youâ€™re trying to blame your decision to buy a guitar worth THOUSANDS of dollars using the F&F option on the seller (or the option itself). Had you not been comfortable buying F&F, you could have always offered to pay the extra 2.9%. Had the seller refused, well, then you would have known right then and there not to deal with that person.

Iâ€™ve been buying and selling here for years and I have both bought and sold using F&F time and time again without incident. That said, I never buy F&F from non-long time regularly active members. And I never buy F&F for large sums unless I consider the seller a real friend or like family. When I sell, I always offer the option of the buyer using reg. PP and paying the 2.9%. Some do that, some donâ€™t.

Thereâ€™s a lesson to be learned from your mistake here, to be sure, but I donâ€™t think â€œNever buy PP friends and familyâ€ is the the sum total of that lesson. Just my two cents.
_________________
Remington Steelmaster S8 w/ custom Steeltronics pickup. Vox MV-50 amplifier + an 1940's Oahu cab w/ 8" American Vintage speaker. J. Mascis Fender Squire Jazzmaster, Hofner Club bass, Ibanez AVN4-VMS Artwood Vintage Series Concert Size Acoustic Guitar. 1920s/30s Supertone Hawaiian-themed parlor guitar. Silvertone parlor guitar.

Mike DiAlesandro · From: Kent, Ohio

Bill McCloskey · Posted 11 Aug 2020 7:13 am

"Same here, I spoke with a PayPal representative and they have no issue with the Family and Friends option for purchases, it just waives any liability on their end.
"

Of course they don't. See my post on how paypal really makes their money.

Eric Dahlhoff · From: Point Arena, California

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

That makes sense, Bill McCloskey. It's just like the money in my checking account. My bank doesn't charge me anything, but they have the use of my money as an asset while it sits there. PayPal is like a bank.

Credit card processing costs PayPal money, so they charge a fee and then leverage the card's buyer protection services for their customers. That also makes sense to me.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

Bill McCloskey · Posted 11 Aug 2020 9:48 am

Exactly. You aren't cheating them by using friends and family.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Mark Helm · From: Tennessee, USA

Barry Yasika · From: Bethlehem, Pa.

Just out of curiosity is this about the push pull your bought on the forum? Have you ever owned a push-pull before? I've always had all pull guitars but have sat in with a band that the steel player used a push pull Emmons. Joe Hart was his name and he is an awesome player. He sounded outrageous on his guitar but when I played it, I had the worst time with the intonation. Something I was doing was really wrong. Joe'd get back up without touching a thing and was playing Paul Franklin jazz stuff like it was nothing and sounded perfectly in tune. Since then I've avoided the push pull scene. It's a different animal altogether, it like switching from guitar to bass. You might be goin a little hard on the seller. Just my 2 cents worth. At any rate, a push pull tech has to be able to correct any problems you might be having. Try to get hold of Tom Vollmer in Pa. He's not all that far and I'm sure he'd square you up. Good luck bud, I'm sure your situation is fixable, after all - it is an Emmons.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Mark and Barry: this topic is only about PayPal's policies, an informational discussion worthy of note on its own merit, for all who do business via the internet. I am only one of many who have had unfortunate purchasing experiences here, and I have already said all that needs saying on that subject in a separate topic, which b0b has already closed, as is appropriate.

The title and text of this post are quite clear, neither veiled nor oblique, and I appreciate the meaningful insights and suggestions of my fellow forumites capable of grasping and contributing to the actual discussion at hand.

John Brabant · From: Calais, VT, USA

Dave Grafe. I sent you a PM. RSVP
_________________
John Brabant
1978 Emmons D-10 P-P

Mark Helm · From: Tennessee, USA

Jim Saunders · From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.

I still think it's a form of cheating. Otherwise why wouldn't Paypal label the choices this way: 1. With buyer/seller protections(2.9% charge) , or 2. without protections (free). Then everyone would know their honest choices.

Forum Index > For Sale: Steel Guitars	Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic