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Topic: Palm Chimes vs. Octave |
Tod Johnson
From:
Hawaii, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2020 1:00 pm |
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The biggest difference that I can think of, without doing much experimenting since I'm still working on my chimes, would be the muting. It looks automatic with the chimes but if you played it up at the octave, muting would need to be spot on. Also I guess the length of travel over the frets may be an issue.
Any other reason you couldn't play those licks at the octave instead of palm chimes? Other than the cheating part lol.
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1939 Oahu Tonemaster, 1957 Rickenbacker, Melbert 8, and a cheap Rogue. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2020 1:59 pm
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It wouldn't sound the same.
Erv |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Tod Johnson
From:
Hawaii, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2020 9:03 pm
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Thanks guys, I think I'm beginning to understand.
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1939 Oahu Tonemaster, 1957 Rickenbacker, Melbert 8, and a cheap Rogue. |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 11 Aug 2020 4:10 am
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I agree, its mostly to get that haunting sound of the harmonic...not just an easy way to go up an octave. That said, counterpoint...here's a tune that is justly famous among steel guitarists, prominently using harmonics...and ML's version eschews them and just goes to the upper octave! I have heard her hit harmonics in tunes on dobro before so I'm not sure why, but she does make it sound pretty good even with the octave up approach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zATONGvTMNg
Also, natural harmonics (open string chimes) can get different notes depending on fret position, so you can play whole melodies without the bar, like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbtGJYtTb2c
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 11 Aug 2020 6:01 am
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Harmonics happen on all instruments as the overtone series is part of the physics of the natural world. But string players have unique ability to manipulate harmonics compared to other instruments.
In my opinion, they are one of the coolest things about playing steel guitar. Here's a track by Benny Rogers that, for me, really brings home what you can do with palm harmonics if you put in the effort to diligently practice. Despite all the years I've been playing, I am still as likely to clunk as chime when I try to put long strings of 'em together. Need to hit the woodshed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to_9yQ696r0&fbclid=IwAR2EhFrQf_TaDUFXQilZ0262U-YweiqeepNa_XjwDnZPRbWmWW5mih6sFfA
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Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2020 6:37 am
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Hank Thompson's steel players had an effect where they would make harmonics by raking the strings with the thumb pick and their little finger at three different places on the fret board. I believe it was at frets 5 or 7 and then fret 9 and finally at the 12th fret.
You can hear that on some of Brazos Valley Boys recordings. 
Erv |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 11 Aug 2020 7:06 am
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Yeah, the 1-5-1 octave up effect! With open strings its fret 12, 7, 5, but you can do it at any position as long as you judge the relative positions right. Basil Henriques used that a lot as well.
There's an effect Alan Akaka was showing me, that Jerry Byrd taught him...say you're playing on strings 1 and 2 (or 2 and 3), and you play the top string straight (no harmonic) but the lower string with a chime. Don't ask me how to do it...I dunno, practice as much as Jerry and Alan did? But its impressive. He says its a bit easier to do with a slant (so you don't accidentally chime the top string).
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 11 Aug 2020 7:44 am
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JERRY BYRD ON HARMONICS:
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HARMONICS. These are musical ornamentation of the most delicate kind. There are many ways to do them, but all harmonics have this in common: the picking of the string and the stopping of the fret (with the finger, palm, or knuckle) must be perfectly synchronized. Just as the pick flies off the string immediately after picking, so must the finger, palm, or knuckle fly off the string immediately after picking in order to produce a harmonic. If it is left on too long, a mutted 'flubbing' sound will be heard. If it is removed too soon, an ordinary note will be heard instead of a harmonic.
Finger Harmonics. These have also been called 'natural' and 'open string' harmonics. They are usually played at the 5th, 7th, and 12th frets. They are so-called because the bar is not used at all. Instead, the little finger of the left hand acts as a bar and touches very quickly on the strings at the 5th, 7th, or 12th fret The right hand plucks the string at the same time. Best results are achieved by moving the right hand as far to the right as possible, allowing for a longer string vibration length. Harmonics on the 12th and 5th frets produce the harmonic notes of the 12th fret, except that those on the 5th fret will be an octave higher. Harmonics an the 7th fret (also 19th fret) will be the harmonic notes of the 7th fret Those on the 19th fret will be the same as at the 7th fret, not an octave higher as you would expect.
Palm Harmonics. These are a much neglected but very important aspect of steel guitar playing. They provide a change of mood, are very secretive. Don't fight them, don’t fear them, just relax and play them easily. Just as we have a nervous tendency to play the next note too soon rather than get the most value from the note we have just played, we're in the habit of tensing up and dreading the palm harmonics. Palm harmonics can be played at any fret, as long as the right edge of your right palm is held parallel to the frets, exactly 12 frets up from the steel bar. The trick is to pluck the string (with your thumb pick) at exactly the same instant as the palm is placed on the string, and to release the palm quickly enough to allow the harmonic to ring out. If you're quick with the thumb, you can strike several strings at once and produce a harmonic strum If you're very selective with your right palm, you can pluck two strings with your thumb pick, one of which is a harmonic and the other a natural note. You can also use thumb and finger pick to play strings that are not adjacent, or to play harmonics on a slant. Keep the steel bar right on the fret, do not use vibrato.
Finger tip harmonics. A variation of the palm harmonic can be produced by using the tip of the third finger, right hand, to touch the string exactly 12 frets (one octave) higher than the fret where the bar is placed. Your thumb pick will pick the string behind (to the right of) the third finger. With these harmonics you can be very selective of string and precise in finger placement as you can see exactly where the finger touches. If you are careful, a sequence of harmonics can be sounded and left zinging while new ones are being made.
Knuckle harmonics. In the same way, you can use the knuckle of your little finger, right hand, to deaden the string and release. With your thumb, you pick the string to the left of the knuckle. These harmonics are the easiest when played with the knuckle 12 frets above the barred fret, but they (and finger tip harmonics) can be used at many other frets to produce higher harmonics, for very special effects. Very few musicians can do this: place your bar at the first fret. Do a harmonic with your finger or your knuckle at the 8th fret, first string. Assuming that the string is tuned to E, the harmonic note you produce will be a high C. Do it at the 6th fret to produce a high F harmonic, at the 5th fret for a high A, and at the 4th fret for a C one octave higher than the C you produced at the 8th fret. With these four notes, you can play 'Taps'. Place your bar at any fret you wish, just remember that these harmonics can be produced by placing the finger or knuckle 7 frets, 5, 4, and 3 frets higher than the bar. That's the secret of the harmonics used in playing 'Whispering Reef'.
"For both palm and knuckle harmonics, some players don't think of placing the hand (palm) 12 frets higher than the bar. Since they can't see exactly where the hand is touching the strings (thumb gets in the way) they prefer to note where their thumb pick was located at the time. |
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Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 11 Aug 2020 8:04 am
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Great stuff from JB. As a confession...I find I play chimes differently than most. Just what has started to come a bit easier to me. Instead of the palm, I tend to use the side of my pinky finger, sort of near the first knuckle...and usually pluck with my first finger (rather than my thumb). I tend to be more accurate this way. For strums up the strings though, usually it is palm/thumb pick. Anyway, I always feel vaguely guilty about this, but there does seem to be a fair amount of space for varying techniques in Steel Guitar Land.
He mentions frets 12 7 and 5, which of course are the main ones. But as a bass player, if you are patient enough to work it out, there an amazing amount of positions you can find additional harmonics, usually at fractions between frets. Portrait of Tracy being one of the more stunning examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsZ_1mPOuyk
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Aug 2020 9:12 am
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Nic, you're in good company with the little finger "knuckle harmonics"... that's how the Big E did it!
Here's something Buddy Emmons posted on the old Steel Guitar Forum in 1998. Andy Volk reposted it here in 2014:
From Buddy Emmons:
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I use the knuckle area of the pinky, which is smaller, more comfortable for the hand position, and more precise. Lock the pinky and thumb in a position you can maintain throughout the motion and without moving either, brush the tops of the strings in a forward, vertical direction.
The secret is in keeping the thumb and pinky in line and synchronizing their path across the strings. |
Buddy said he also used "palm" harmonics for playing western swing chord stuff on C6.
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Last edited by Doug Beaumier on 11 Aug 2020 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tod Johnson
From:
Hawaii, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2020 11:52 am
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Nic - Love Larkin Poe. The sister is a phenomenal singer. They'd be fun to see live.
Erv - I first saw that here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18obUYfRt5M
And without a pick. I tried to ask Henry Allen about it here on Maui but he didn't know what I was talking about. Want to get the palm down first.
Nic & Doug - I think I switched to the same but I looked at as positioning my pinky into more of a pure perpendicular position. It puts my thumb in a more difficult angle to pick but when I found that out they came easier. I'll try looking at it from the knuckle perspective too.
Andy - Great post mate. Going to enlarge and print before I read the whole thing.
_________________
1939 Oahu Tonemaster, 1957 Rickenbacker, Melbert 8, and a cheap Rogue. |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2020 9:58 am
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Check out Chris Scruggs here working his magic on Harbor Lights. On the first verse (0:15) and other points throughout the song he is playing harmonics AND barred notes at the same time. So masterful!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whFL_bHkgAA |
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Paul McEvoy
From:
Baltimore, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2020 1:34 pm
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| For the record, I think the bass harmonics are a result of the longer string length. I'm pretty sure that the higher harmonics are theoretically more prominent as string length lengthens (towards infinity). |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 13 Aug 2020 4:35 am
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| Paul McEvoy wrote: |
| For the record, I think the bass harmonics are a result of the longer string length. I'm pretty sure that the higher harmonics are theoretically more prominent as string length lengthens (towards infinity). |
Yeah, I've certainly observed that in practice. Although with my 24.5" console in front of me, if I test harmonics on the high E, and then test on a low C (.064), I can definitely get the funky harmonics more easily on the low string (think like fret 3.8 and 8.8...gives you a maj third, convenient for one string playing of Taps  ). I'm sure there's good science behind it, I just don't really know it!
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 13 Aug 2020 5:27 am
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It's out of print but If you can find a copy, the definitive, last word on harmonics is this book by the late David Winters: Natural and artificial harmonics for the Guitar. It's a complete look at harmonics ... the physics, ways of playing them, etc. It's oriented to the standard guitar but applies equally to steel. Unfortunately, the few copies I see online are astoundingly high priced.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Don Kona Woods
From:
Hawaiian Kama'aina
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Posted 13 Aug 2020 11:20 am
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The Roger's style of playing Hawaiian Steel Guitar was a family style of playing which was perpetuated within the Rogers family. They wanted it to remain in the family and kept many of the aspects of their tunings and playing secret. Benny and Feets Rogers passed on this style to a young Ron Kanahele who was adopted into the family through hanai. He played Moana Chimes just like Benny and when he played it in conventions all ears were open. This style was also adopted by Herb Hanawahine who played Moana Chimes in the tradition of the Rogers family. I will see if I can retrieve some of Ron and Herb's playing Moana Chimes from my archives. |
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Paul McEvoy
From:
Baltimore, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2020 5:35 pm
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If you're interested in how harmonics work and where they came from I highly recommend the book A Harmonic Experience. It is all about the overtones series and has great information about intonation and harmonics. It's a general music book but much of it is relatable to steel guitar. My favorite book on music ever.
Also Miles Okazakis book Fundamentals of Guitar has a lot about harmonics in the beginning of the book. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2020 6:41 pm
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Nick - that link...who is that girl?
Wow - One of the best versions I've heard. |
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Tod Johnson
From:
Hawaii, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2020 8:55 pm
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| Jim Pitman wrote: |
Nick - that link...who is that girl?
Wow - One of the best versions I've heard. |
They're a sister group Larkin Poe. Check them out, they rip.
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1939 Oahu Tonemaster, 1957 Rickenbacker, Melbert 8, and a cheap Rogue. |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 14 Aug 2020 4:25 am
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Yep, they're the one band my family basically agrees on in the car on road trips (we've learned to avoid the Eternal Struggle of Alfred Apaka Versus Taylor Swift, lol). They are great live, kind of made for that...saw them in Salina a few years back. The last few years they've been heavy into blues, but I like their earlier stuff that was a blend of pop, bluegrass, rock...and look up the Lovell Sisters for their first group (bluegrass). Here's another 60s instrumental cover, Apache: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7rDXhrlFAQ
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Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 14 Aug 2020 1:17 pm
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I've never hears a better version of Apache. It transcends the instrument.
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Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 14 Aug 2020 2:05 pm
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| Andy Volk wrote: |
| I've never hears a better version of Apache. It transcends the instrument. |
It's a fine version indeed - but Megan has the benefit of sister Rebecca to play the rapid fire eighth and sixteenth notes on electric guitar.
It's been shared here in the pst - Doug Beaumier's excellent Apache. He uses a backing track - but he needs to come up with the fast stuff on his own on the steel, so he plays the song with a flatpick (and some nice harmonics):
https://tinyurl.com/y6xe9oha
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Mark |
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