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Topic: Easily expandable beginner steels? |
Isaac deBroux-Slone
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2020 10:01 am |
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Hey all- new player here. I'm looking to buy a relatively affordable steel but I don't want to get something that I'll find limiting eventually. I'm a huge Sneaky Pete fan and am hoping to eventually play a setup close to his with an 8 or 10 string single neck guitar in C6 or B6. There's a birdseye maple Maverick at a guitar shop in my town for $1000 that I've been eyeing up but after a bit of research it seems like I won't be able to expand on that much at all.
Any thoughts on what the best choice for me is or guitars I should keep my eyes peeled for? |
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Mike Mantey
From:
Eastern Colorado, USA
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 29 Jul 2020 12:19 pm
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The Justice guitar is a better choice, I think. I’m getting one myself. Two reasons: I want to experiment with a very simple setup and I want to be able to recommend it from personal experience to the younger people I’m meeting who are interested in pedal steel. Many have limited means or are just overwhelmed with the complexity of the instrument and are reluctant to dive in. The S-10Jr addresses these issues and I think is the breakthrough that the instrument needs to achieve broader appeal. Email Ron and talk to him about what you want.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Danelectro, Evans, Fender, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Wesley Medlen
From:
LaCygne,Ks
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Posted 29 Jul 2020 12:47 pm
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I started playing psg in 04. I've had S10' s and SD10's With 3&4 or 3&5. At 84 I can't handle the weight so I ordered a S10 Jr. from Ron and Fred' Igot 3&3. You can play any thing on it. I couldn't afford a higher dollar steel. I received it July 7th Most of my playing right now is in cowboy church. I don't do a lot of licks. I am extremily happy with it. Wes
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Justice S10 Jr, Gibson Electra 6string, Boss Katana 100, Steelers Choice ,Gretsch 6 string lap, Hilton VP |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 29 Jul 2020 1:02 pm
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if you're interested in C6 or B6 you may want to consider a 12-string Universal E9/B6 tuning. lots of great builds available and used models tend to sell for a bit lower than single or double tens because there is less interest in them overall. and if 12 strings seems like too many, you can just remove a couple strings. I'd stay away from the Maverick, it's strictly a student model and rather limited in function.
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1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 29 Jul 2020 3:44 pm
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I'm a total convert to E9/B6 universal. I'm not sure I'd recommend it to a beginner, but if Scott thinks it's a good idea I won't argue. Isaac could be a musical genius who takes to it like a duck to water.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Larry Dering
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2020 6:44 pm
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| Not only is expanding a steel expensive but most student models are not capable. If you're looking to attempt Petes playing then a Universal is your ticket. It may be overwhelming at 1st but you won't regret not having the changes you want. I play mostly E9 but have a D10 8x4. Very little C6 gets used but I like it. The extended E9 or the Universal would give me all I wanted out of both. |
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Don Poland
From:
Hanover, PA.
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Posted 31 Jul 2020 7:21 am
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You're a good man, Mike. It is heartwarming to see a vendor step up and offer information to someone, even though it is from a competitor. Mullen and Justice are both fine guitars. |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2020 7:49 am
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 Fred must of had his thinking cap on when he came up with this economical pro model steel. Just a brilliant Idea period.
On these steels anybody who can tie there shoes could add a Knee or pedal them selves
With Fred’s knee lever an pedal kits.
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 31 Jul 2020 10:48 am
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I don't think the Justice S-10 Junior is going to fit the bill if you are looking into something as in depth as Sneaky Pete's 9p2k (I'm referencing the posted 8 String B6th COPENDENT in the links section, which has a string getting 2 raises and 2 lowers). If you wanted to make it happen on Justice S10 Jr, I would give up pedal 4's string 1 raise and have at it. The limited changer would also keep you from expanding out later. If your budget supports it, a Justice and S10 Pro or ProLite would make a better choice.
The Junior is limited to 2 raise, single lower changer - that you will find will be outgrown quickly if you divert from traditional E9th COPEDENTS. Justice's S10 Pro, ProLite, and Judge are triple Raise, triple lower. The rest of the undercarriage is exactly the same between all their models.
I own a Justice ProLite, started life as a 4k6p E9th guitar. Soon after I got it, it got its first pedal addition. It didn't take long and I converted it to a E9th/B6th Universal (10string): 9 pedals, 7 knees with the parts I got from Fred - and a bit of knowledge from the Forum here. I'm really only missing the lower string changes, but I have a lever that gives me the 11th string E so there isn't too much I gave up doing it this way. I've added 5 pedals, and a knee (RKR2, that one is interesting to try to play and maintain volume control by the way), the cross shafts, bell cranks, pull rods all of it, I don't think there is another brand of steel guitar out there one can work on quite as easily as the Justice Guitars.
Pros to doing it this way, you really take notice of how everything you change effects everything else. You can take the process in stages and add things as you need. You're really only limited by the changer (which is true regardless of brand).
Cons to doing it this way, your adding changes and changing COPEDENTS almost as much as your practicing it. You aren't learning a standard setup, so some of your time will be dedicated to transcribing those lessons to your setup. (I've been doing that a bit with the C6th tabs I'm working on, eventually I'd like to develop an eye for it and not have to re-transpose things). Biggest thing, if you don't have the mechanical mindset, it can be very difficult to get all you pulls timed the way is most comfortable. FInally, should you decide you need a 12 string later, you'll be buying another steel later on.
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 31 Jul 2020 12:31 pm
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My point is that the Jr is infinitely better than a Maverick, if that is all his budget will allow. It’s a good quality instrument that you can add a lot to until you advance to a point where you might need more.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Danelectro, Evans, Fender, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 1 Aug 2020 4:28 am
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I agree the Jr is superior to the Maverick or really any student model steel. I bring up its shortfalls and my experiance and recomendations to avoid the OP from needing a different guitar later on.
The Jr. could have an abridged copendent for Sneaky Pete put on it, eventually the OP will find the changer limiting.
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 1 Aug 2020 5:37 am
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Well the op can get his feet plenty wet with 2 an 2 an if he finds that pedal steel is not for him I’m sure he can trade out of the JR steel or break even on selling it.
This JR model is a pro model tiger in sheep’s hide. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Aug 2020 6:51 am
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| If I were picking an instrument for someone else, a single-lower limitation of any guitar would eliminate it from my selection. Whatever I picked would have to be capable of (at least) double raises/lowers for versatility. Especially, if the player was thinking long-term usage and experimentation with setup variations. |
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Paul Wade
From:
mundelein,ill
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Posted 1 Aug 2020 7:28 am Steel
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Here Milwaukee Craigslist
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Aug 2020 3:03 pm
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That'd be a great pick for a beginner, Paul! Wish I'd had one when I started...those guitars are rock-solid and will last forever. I'd also add that you can probably play 98% of everything Sneaky Pete played on a standard S10 3+4 E9th setup. You certainly don't need twelve strings; Pete had only eight!
It's not what you have, it's how well you can use it.  |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Fred Justice
From:
Mesa, Arizona
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Posted 2 Aug 2020 6:49 am
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Hi Donny, I'm afraid Mr. Lloyd Green might disagree with you about the 2 raise/1 lower changer.
Lloyd cut every hit he ever did on a "2 Raise/1 Lower" changer.
He seemed to "Geter-Done" pretty easy on that. 
Many thanks to Mike M. and everyone for you vote of confidence. It makes Ron feel good. and me too.
_________________
Email: azpedalman@gmail.com
Phone: 480-235-8797 |
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Ronald Anderson
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2020 8:22 am Justice S10 Junior
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| Fred has done a great job in the design and features of the Jr. I would like to thank everyone for the positive comments on the forum. I purchased the business from Fred in January. He is still very involved in the training, and we have become great friends. I will be building the same great quality guitars with Fred's help for a long time to come. Ron Anderson |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 2 Aug 2020 9:56 am
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I'm gonna take rare exception to Donny's thinking on this one - he and I are usually in sync. I could get all my essential changes on an all-pull 2+1 changer, even some stuff that's non-essential to me. In fact, I had a Sho Bud LDG with the 2+1 changer and 2-hole pullers that did everything I need, and sounded great. Lemme see:
Raises:
A-pedal: Strings 5+10 B=>C#
B-pedal: Strings 3+6 G#=>A
C-pedal: String 4 E=>F#, B=>C#
F-lever: Strings 4+8 E=>F
String 1 F#=>G#
String 2 D#=>E
Lowers:
E-lever: Strings 4+8 E=>Eb
D-lever: Strings 2 D#=>D=>Db and string 9 D=>Db (half-stop set against string 9 drop and/or plunger device)
String 6 G#=>F#
String 5 B=>Bb
Counting up the raises and lowers for each string:
| Code: |
String 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Raises 1 1 1 2 1 1 0 1 0 1
Lowers 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 0
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I would need 3+5 just to implement that much. I'd rather have string 1+2 raises on a 6th lever, and I don't absolutely require them. It would even be possible, in principle, to add a split micro-raise on strings 5 and 6 to get an in-tune split C note with the A-pedal and the B=>Bb lower, and an in-tune split G note with the B-pedal and the G=>F# lower. That would increase the raise count on strings 5 & 6 to 2.
So, as far as I'm concerned, I'm gonna run outta levers before I run outta lower holes. I think this Justice Jr. is a great guitar for someone starting out for a great price. To be able to get into a brand new, all-pull starter guitar from a good builder for a grand that can be upgraded to a very capable 3+4 configuration is tremendous, IMO. If I wasn't so tall and tend to struggle with single-neck guitars, I'd have already gotten one for lightweight throw-and-go situations, travel guitar, and so on.
And hey, I love Sneaky Pete too - I think an important part of getting in the ballpark of Pete's sound is getting a coil-tapped pickup with the low-resistance tap around 8-10K Ohms. Look at some of the links I posted here if you wanna think about that - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=360181
And hey - to the original poster: have you thought about just getting an old Fender 800. That's the 10-string version, typically come with 6 pedals, and are easy to work on. Personally, to start out, I'd go for the Justice Jr. set up to a normal E9 to get the benefit of lots of available instruction material, instead of trying to go down a completely independent path. But I have an 800, it's a cool guitar.
Last edited by Dave Mudgett on 2 Aug 2020 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Justice
From:
Mesa, Arizona
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Posted 2 Aug 2020 11:55 am
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I'm pretty sure Ron would put a vertical on the Jr.
On a standard 3x5 that could lower your B's to Bb
_________________
Email: azpedalman@gmail.com
Phone: 480-235-8797 |
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