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Topic: Carter pedal stop screws |
Arrigo Martelli
From:
Italy
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 12:31 pm |
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Hello, I'm trying to adjust the pedal stop on a Carter S10 that I recently bought. I'm trying to get more travel out of the B pedal. According to the manual I should be able to adjust the screws by using a 1/16" allen wrench... the problem is that on my Carter the stop screws are as tight as they can be but there is no locking nut...
As far as you know are they glued? Loctite?
How do I loosen them? I tried applying heat to the screw with a solder gun but I didn't get to loosen it.
Thanks! |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 2:18 pm
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I had one or two of those screws be too loose and wouldn't stay in place. The only solution, as presented to me by John Fabian at Carter, was to adjust them to where I wanted them and freeze them with loctite which of course is a lousy solution. But John knew there wasn't any other good answer.
So loctite, after-market, is certainly possible. With those tiny set screws, it is so easy to strip the hex. I wish I had a helpful suggestion but...I don't. |
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Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 2:33 pm
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Small allen wrenches wear out and sometimes need a new bite.
Grind it down 1/8 to 3/16" shorter, knock off the burrs and try the screw again.
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 4:53 pm
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This is something i've been putting off, making/buying a T handle allen wrench that size. I think if i can't budge it using reasonable force and a good T wrench I would take it to a machine shop, you don't want to strip it
This talks about those screws being loctited and there's other ideas about unfreezing them but I haven't tried any of them and especially don't use the soldering iron on aluminum
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=2267524
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2020 4:39 am
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[quote="Jon Light"]I had one or two of those screws be too loose and wouldn't stay in place. The only solution, as presented to me by John Fabian at Carter, was to adjust them to where I wanted them and freeze them with loctite which of course is a lousy solution. But John knew there wasn't any other good answer.
So loctite, after-market, is certainly possible. With those tiny set screws, it is so easy to strip the hex. I wish I had a helpful suggestion but...I don't.[/quote..
Ove the years when I had to lock down a screw, nut, bolts, etc, that I might want to move again one day, I always went to easier to break thread lockers,.. I have have had very good luck using plain old Silicone RTV, or various glues such as 3M weatherstrip adhesive, or various rubberized caulks... They will not allow the tread to back off if they were applied to a clean thread, yet remain pliable enough to remove with reasonable effort if need be.. Loctite IS great stuff, and I use it a lot, but try and avoid it on small threads... It just sets too hard... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Arrigo Martelli
From:
Italy
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Posted 26 Jul 2020 8:33 am
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Thank you for all your replies. Unless I'm missing something I don't see what could keep these screws from moving other than glue/Loctite:
So far I've tried using liquid wrench with no success... screws doesn't want to move. Applying force is out of question as it would strip the tiny screw immediately... Do you know if there is any specific product that should be used to remove Loctite or similar glues? What a drag this is. |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 26 Jul 2020 9:08 am
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Aaaarg, a giant picture of Torx screw, I hate those things!
Did you apply liquid wrench from both ends? Is a ratcheting T handle wrench not doing it? I haven't gotten around to buying one but I know i'll have this problem someday
The desperate next step could be (not saying this is a good idea) grabbing the bottom of the screw with needle nose pliers and rotating counterclockwise, if your needlenoses can fit in there and of course you'll ahve to take out a bunch of pull rods and bellcranks first.
Another idea which im 100% sure is a bad idea, cut/grind the bottom of screw in place
In the thread i posted somebody talked about heating the aluminum more than the steel screw, AL will expand faster but they were talking about extracting Torx screw from bellcrank, not here where you'd also be heating wood and I think there's some Delrin in there also.
Did you ask Al Brisco, Jim Palenscar, any other people you can think of?
I have a theory how this happened, whoever was putting together steels, they were told to put loctite on with a toothpick, which worked great until they lost the toothpick.
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew
Last edited by Gene Tani on 26 Jul 2020 9:49 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 26 Jul 2020 9:29 am
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I'd try heat first. Heat gun or tiny butane pocket torch just on the flat side area of aluminum where the set screw is...on that alu rail not on top of the screw.
Liquid Wrench and other products won't do any good until they get into the threads which it obviously can't do if there's no space.
Else, I'd pick up a pair of needle nose Vice Grips, try to work a little liquid wrench or solvent on the bottom threads and clamp on down as low on the screw as possible to get a good grip. You'll only get one chance so make sure you have a good grip. If it moves, work it left and right alternately until it starts to loosen up.
I wouldn't even try to move that screw with an allen wrench unless it's a t handle as Gene suggests, or screwdriver handle type where you can put good downward pressure on it while turning. |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 26 Jul 2020 9:42 am
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With bigger allen wrenches you can cut a straight section and lock it into an electric drill for leverage but I don't think that'll work here. Also make sure the Allen wrench is a high quality one, I think carbide and vanadium are the kinds of alloys you want.
I'll try to flip my D10 and see how those screws are today, something I've been dreading
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2020 10:21 am
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How about this?
Leave the screw as is and remove that white pad that's the stop for the other end of travel. Tighten up the pull at the end of the guitar. You might be able to gain enough travel to accomplish what you want. replace pad with something less thick like rubber sheet if you think its' too noisy. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2020 10:33 am Re: Carter pedal stop screws
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| Arrigo Martelli wrote: |
| I'm trying to get more travel out of the B pedal. |
Nobody has asked an obvious question: are you sure that increasing the travel is the solution to whatever the problem is you're trying to solve? Please let us know the problem you're seeing, because increasing the pedal's travel may not be the best choice.
For example, when I went from a plain 6th string to a wound string on my Carter, it seemed that the pedal needed more travel. But that was not the way to fix it-- it was to move the pull rod on the bellcrank to get a longer pull out of the existing B pedal's travel. I moved the rod up, one hole further away from the axle.
Based on my reading, it's very rare to need to change the Carter pedal travel that's been set at the factory. You can get almost anything you need out of the changer by making rodding changes at the bellcrank. Just like any guitar, you can set a shorter, stiffer pull... or you can set a longer, easier pull. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2020 11:25 am
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| Good point Tucker. Arrigo - from that photo it looks like you could get much more travel by moving the pull rod anchor up a notch or three on the bell crank. |
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James Flaherty
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2020 12:12 pm
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| If you can get a longer allen head stop you can thread a nut onto the end of it to keep it from moving. That's what I did on my Dekley. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 26 Jul 2020 12:36 pm
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My Carter, and one other that I worked on, had what looks like a center punch mark on the aluminum rail (see black spot in the face of the rail) that applies pressure to the screw. The punch was on the side of the rail that is against the rear apron on the Carter I worked on, and not visible. According to Bud Carter, that is how they secured those stop screws. I've not had much trouble adjusting those screws.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Arrigo Martelli
From:
Italy
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Posted 28 Jul 2020 4:21 am
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Thanks everybody for all the suggestions. I just ordered a hex screwdriver and will use that. Also, I think I will try heat again.
| Quote: |
| Nobody has asked an obvious question: are you sure that increasing the travel is the solution to whatever the problem is you're trying to solve? Please let us know the problem you're seeing, because increasing the pedal's travel may not be the best choice. |
The problem I have is that the B pedal is setup to have a very short throw, and it gets activated with the slightest pressure. Unfortunately I don't have a very flexible ankle, and with the current setup I just can't rock from AB to A without having the 3rd string always slightly activated. I've been there with my GFI too, and the only thing that fixed it for me was increasing the B pedal throw.
Obviously I could move the pull rod anchor up a notch on the bell crank: I already tried that and it did give me more leverage... but it made the B pedal considerably stiffer. I really don't mind a relatively longer throw, but I'm quite sensitive to pedal action, so that's why I would love to try and adjust just the pedal stop without having to make the action stiffer.
| Quote: |
How about this?
Leave the screw as is and remove that white pad that's the stop for the other end of travel. Tighten up the pull at the end of the guitar. You might be able to gain enough travel to accomplish what you want. replace pad with something less thick like rubber sheet if you think its' too noisy. |
Thank you for this tip, I'll try this if all else fails : ) |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 28 Jul 2020 7:37 am
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I also thought if you can get a couple nuts on that Allen head screw and lock them together you could use a wrench to break the seal.
I don't know how much lookng around you've done in the underside but those brass pieces are called dogbones or pullpins and you should inspect them for wear on the most often used pedals and levers, rotate/clean/lube the good ones and replace any that show a lot of wear
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_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 28 Jul 2020 8:51 am
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| Arrigo Martelli wrote: |
| The problem I have is that the B pedal is setup to have a very short throw, and it gets activated with the slightest pressure. Unfortunately I don't have a very flexible ankle, and with the current setup I just can't rock from AB to A without having the 3rd string always slightly activated. |
The problem you described -- not being able to rock to A-pedal without accidentally touching B-pedal -- is very common. The solution is usually to raise the height of the A-pedal. Or lower the B-pedal. Or do both. This makes it so that you don't have to twist your ankle as far to the left when you rock from AB to A.
This is why most steel players have their pedals set that way, with the A-pedal sitting higher than the B (maybe 3 cm or so, you'll have to try out different heights to find your preference). If you don't know how to do this adjustment, it's done on the pedal rod. The spring-loaded connector that attaches to the pedal can be turned, screwed further onto the rod (or unscrewed)... effectively making the rod shorter or longer. You just have to release that small locking-bolt so that you can then turn the entire connector to screw it on or off the pedal rod.
Also, on a guitar like this, even the slightest foot pressure on the pedals will cause the pitch to change. That's not going to change no matter what adjustment you make.
I hope you get it fixed to your liking however you do it. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 28 Jul 2020 9:16 am
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| I'd like to echo what Gene wrote. Whichever tool you choose, be sure it's a good one. Cheap soft metal will just twist or strip right away. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 28 Jul 2020 9:38 am
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
| I'd like to echo what Gene wrote. Whichever tool you choose, be sure it's a good one. Cheap soft metal will just twist or strip right away. |
For sure. But I also stripped a Craftsman and a Klein T-handle torx wrench on this ridiculous screws on the bellcranks. I found that pounding on the t-handle with a mallet a few times seemed to help.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 28 Jul 2020 10:27 am
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Went to a couple specialty tool/fastener stores, got this, but forgot purple loctite. On those torx screws, push down firmly on the wrench and push up equally firmly on the cross shaft, haven't stripped on yet.
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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