Fender 2000 Changer Problem

Aaron McFate · From: Arizona, USA

Hi Everyone, I'm a new member of this really neat forum. I have a fender 2000 that I put rods and KL's on. (I play the E9 w/ 3Ps, 4Ks, and 1Up) The guitar has a certain annoying tone, so I installed many different string guages and then new pickups (GeorgeL 10-1's) which sounded great, but I still have this annoying tone problem, ie; string 4 or 5, immediatly after being picked, seems to have an increase in undesirable overtones(I think that, in reality, only certain partials of the harmonic ladder are being accentuated as their bandwidth or peak widens or raises). I imagine this problem is caused by the strings vibrating against the long curve of the changer finger.

The Question is, do I Remachine the top of the finger to a smaller radius(Oh-Scarry), Make a small metal saddle to set on top of the finger(Hoaky?), or - Find someone who makes or sells reshaped or improved fingers.

P.S. I don't quite understand everything I know about this, so feel free to pick this apart and/or correct me if I'm wrong!

Your Input will be greatly appreciated, Aaron McFate

[This message was edited by Aaron McFate on 10 May 2006 at 10:27 PM.]

[This message was edited by Aaron McFate on 11 May 2006 at 09:05 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Never heard of a volume increase from a mechanical situation like that. Is it possible you're getting a "buzz" from a groove being worn in the changer saddle? That's a problem typical on old Teles with brass saddles, so it wouldn't surprise me to see that if the saddle part of the changer was worn (although it would take a LOT to wear one out, I think).

If that's it, I'd try to find replacement parts - I have spares for a 400/1000 but I think the 2000 ones are narrower.

But I can't imagine it happening as part of the design or someone would have mentioned it before. Maybe the nut or something was changed, altering the string "break angle" where it comes off the saddle?

Just a couple ideas.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Aaron, how are you putting the strings on?
The problem is almost definitely not the guitar.
"Improved Fingers" They ARE .. Less of a radius and contact point that most other pedal steels.

There are hundreds of 1000 and 2000 players on the 'Forum' and this question has NEVER before arisen, therefore, I would be reluctant to point the finger at the finger !!
It's something else. probably pick-up or string related (what else is there)?
Have you checked to see if you can hear this phenomenon acoustically with the electrics turned off?

------------------

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Before you go modifying or hacking up your guitar, go here...

http://www.onlinesteelers.com/stateslist.cfm?cmnStates=AZ

Get one of these steelers to play your guitar! I can't stress this enough. Countless guitars have been botched up by players who thought they had a problem with their guitar, when it turned out their "problem" was elsewhere.

Dave Ristrim · From: Whites Creek, TN

What kind of pickup is on the guitar, and how close are the strings to the pickup? If the pickup has a strong magnet, and the strings are too close, the magnet can "grab" the string and make it vibrate. Works kinda like an Ebow. Fender Strats can have this problem especially with the neck pickup.

Aaron McFate · From: Arizona, USA

Ok Guys, Thanks, This gives me some direction. The finger tops are in perfect condition with absolutely no signs of grooving and the nut is original. Knowing that there are lots of others playing this guitar with no problems assures me also that the problem must be elswhere.

It seems I don't hear the volume increase with the pickups turned off.

I think I did a good job putting the strings on, but the pickup may be too close to the strings. It is a GeorgeL 10-1, and it's set to where a twenty-five cent piece and a third of a dime will just slide in.

Thanks Donny for the link also, I'll check this out.

I'll do some more research around the string and pickup area and get back with you all.

Thanks Again, You got me going in the right direction.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Any new yet Aaron ?

richard burton · From: Britain

I've noticed an annoying tone problem on the fourth (E) string on every steel I've had.
It's not an increase in volume, it's the tailing of of the note into an irritating whine.

My solution, which I've used for many years, but may not be applicable to the Fender 2000, was to put a thin sliver of plastic between the string and the changer finger, to shorten the decay of the note.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"It seems I don't hear the volume increase with the pickups turned off."

You don't turn a pickup off - you just prevent signal from going to the amp. A pickup is a passive magnetic device, and is ALWAYS "on", even when the guitar is not plugged in. So - the magnet in the pickup affects the strings ALL the time.

Ergo - it's not the pickup.

Another thought - have you tried this with more than one amp? Some amps - if badly designed as far as lead dress (wire positions in the chassis) or when a capacitor starts to go bad will develop types of oscillation that might be what you described. Also, a bad power or preamp tube...especially in the reverb circuit...could do the same thing.

First thing to do - try a second amp. If the problem goes away, get the amp serviced.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Richard - I know just what you are talking about. My old Emmons push/pull did just that. As the note would decay, the annoying ringing would kick in. I don't notice it as much on my Mullen.

By the way, is that a b@njo string I see on your steel guitar?

------------------
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Mullen U-12, Excel 8-string Frypan, Evans FET-500, Fender Steel King

richard burton · From: Britain

No, it's a regular .022 wound that had just broken.

For some reason, I didn't have a spare, but there was enough string left for me to make a loop and hook it back on.

Haven't we all done that at some time ?

Aaron McFate · From: Arizona, USA

OK Basilh, I'm back, but I'm away from the fender 2000 right now (usually away from it 4 or 5 days a week) but I'm going to bring it back to the house tomorrow so that I can keep up with all these ideas.

I'm going to try that plastic strip trick -- Thanks Richard for that tip and do you have any particular plastic that works best? (I'm eyeing that plastic fountain drink cup that's setting on the counter)

Jim, Do you think my pickup may be too close(a little more than a 25cent piece)? I made a mistake when I put the pickups in, setting them on hard foam instead of springs, so they are not really adjustable unless I remove the strings (the pickups set down in the body). --I guess it's time to change the strings and put springs instead of foam under the pickups.

My amp is a Session 400 which I bought new 5 years ago, but the guitar has the same aggravating 4th and 5th string after-tone on any amp I've tried.

Does anybody know if these sound like the right string gauges for this guitar:
(I worked with different gauges quite a bit and don't really want to change them unless I absolutely have to).

23" scale.
(highest & lowest note for each guage)

12 14 12 15 18
F#>G# D#>C# G#>A D#>F# A#>C#

23W 28W 32W 39W 44W
F#>A F#>G# D#>F C#>D A#>C#

Anyway, I'm gonna set the guitar up at my house and see what I can do.

WOW, It's hard to keep up with so much good information!

I will get back with you all as soon as I work on the guitar a little.

THANKS!

[This message was edited by Aaron McFate on 13 May 2006 at 10:38 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Aaron - the pickup is far too close. it might not cause the ringing you hear, but the magnetic pull at that distance almost always kills some sustain and definitely affects tone...and not in a good way.

I'd suggest calling Bill Lawrence regarding string/pickup gap. he's the king of the subject.

Aaron McFate · From: Arizona, USA

Thanks Jim, I'll try to do that before I get to carried away changing other things.

edit- monday, called but Bill Lawrence was in a meeting, Becky said he would be happy to talk to me tommorrow though.
Tried the thin strip of plastic from a fountain drink lid tonight on string #4 (thickness of my .012 string( and it seems now to be a lot closer to matching the timber and sustain characteristics of the others. To test the results, I turned the highs and high mids on the amp all the way up, yes-it was hard to listen to but that was where the tone was hanging out at. (Dont they do somthing similar to this on the high string of the violin to mute it so it wont be too annoying.(

[This message was edited by Aaron McFate on 15 May 2006 at 10:26 PM.]

Aaron McFate · From: Arizona, USA

Talked to Bill Lawrence on the phone today and he recognized the problem right away. He seemed very knowledgable on what makes strings make different noises. He has worked with Fender at different times, and he also worked with Buddy Emmons extensively to overcome this very problem which he calls `string sizzle`. Bill says changing the pickup height will not get rid of an annoying sizzle or buzz.

According to Bill, the problem lies only partly in the finger top. It seems the fingers long radius, coupled with either a small amount of debris or a worn spot on the finger -or both- is a recipe to introduce this sizzle into the strings vibration.

Once the string has this high sizzle, any thing we do to the tone controls in an attempt to get rid of these overtones just serves to take away the brightness and we end up with a somewhat dull sounding instrument. *this is not to say that a little bit of reduction of the highs would not help to cover up these offending tones*.

Bill said that the best thing to do was to be sure the top of the finger was in ABSOLUTELY perfect condition.
-Jims suggestion also-

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